[RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby rodos » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:32 pm

Another interesting thing I've noticed in RAWR is switching to "3.2 mode" and SoV devalues expertise significantly -- presumably because the SoV DoT will keep ticking even if an attack is dodged.
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Joanadark » Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:38 pm

Its not so much that Expertise becomes devalued, as that Strength becomes even more powerful than it was before compared to every single other stat.
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Dorvan » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:01 pm

Joanadark wrote:Its not so much that Expertise becomes devalued, as that Strength becomes even more powerful than it was before compared to every single other stat.


Nah, I'm pretty sure Expertise does in fact provide less DPS per point in 3.2 than it does in 3.1, because a greater proportion of our damage cannot be parried/dodged (the SoV DoT).
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Candiru » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:01 am

and also the free 10 expertise from Glyph of Seal of Vengeance increases the value of Str.
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Morendin » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:03 am

Candiru wrote:and also the free 10 expertise from Glyph of Seal of Vengeance increases the value of Str.


To be anal, the glyph doesn't have any effect on the value of Exp before dodgecap, it just makes it ridiculously easy to make said cap with minimal rating(and if you're a dwarf with a mace, even more so).

Also, Re: the value of expertise going down because of the dot:
As is, it probably goes UP if the newest nerf to SoV goes live without being 'adjusted' to not destroy PVE in the name of PVP.
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Shoju » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:48 am

The problem I find with the devaluing of Expertise in 3.2 is this:


You HAVE To hit with an Autoattack to get the SoV dot up. Our damage is not going to be worth anything until you have a 5 stack of SoV on the target.

IMO, You BETTER be hit capped and Expertise capped as quickly as possible to maintain DPS. 1 Dodge early on in the "ramping up" as GC likes to call it, and you have just put a dent in your DPS. I just don't see a way to consistently do good DPS if you get dodged or god forbid miss an auto attack.

Now the real trick for us 10 man raiders is getting Expertise. There is so dreadfully little expertise gear in Uld10, and only 2 non hard mode piece that we can equip. That leaves the Valor Bracers, and Naxx10/EoH/Craftables to get the rest. I'm currently trying to get the Neck from Anub10 so that I'm almost capped. (at 19 expertise now)
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Baelor » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:22 am

Shoju wrote:The problem I find with the devaluing of Expertise in 3.2 is this:


You HAVE To hit with an Autoattack to get the SoV dot up. Our damage is not going to be worth anything until you have a 5 stack of SoV on the target.

IMO, You BETTER be hit capped and Expertise capped as quickly as possible to maintain DPS. 1 Dodge early on in the "ramping up" as GC likes to call it, and you have just put a dent in your DPS. I just don't see a way to consistently do good DPS if you get dodged or god forbid miss an auto attack.

Now the real trick for us 10 man raiders is getting Expertise. There is so dreadfully little expertise gear in Uld10, and only 2 non hard mode piece that we can equip. That leaves the Valor Bracers, and Naxx10/EoH/Craftables to get the rest. I'm currently trying to get the Neck from Anub10 so that I'm almost capped. (at 19 expertise now)

Drop about 3 expertise and use the SoV glyph instead? Or is that including the SoV glyph?
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Candiru » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:03 am

Morendin wrote:
Candiru wrote:and also the free 10 expertise from Glyph of Seal of Vengeance increases the value of Str.


To be anal, the glyph doesn't have any effect on the value of Exp before dodgecap, it just makes it ridiculously easy to make said cap with minimal rating


Increasing expertise by 10 DOES lower the value of Expertise relative to Str, since Str is now worth more since I now have 10 more expertise, while expertise is unchanged.
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Shoju » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:41 am

Baelor wrote:
Shoju wrote:The problem I find with the devaluing of Expertise in 3.2 is this:


You HAVE To hit with an Autoattack to get the SoV dot up. Our damage is not going to be worth anything until you have a 5 stack of SoV on the target.

IMO, You BETTER be hit capped and Expertise capped as quickly as possible to maintain DPS. 1 Dodge early on in the "ramping up" as GC likes to call it, and you have just put a dent in your DPS. I just don't see a way to consistently do good DPS if you get dodged or god forbid miss an auto attack.

Now the real trick for us 10 man raiders is getting Expertise. There is so dreadfully little expertise gear in Uld10, and only 2 non hard mode piece that we can equip. That leaves the Valor Bracers, and Naxx10/EoH/Craftables to get the rest. I'm currently trying to get the Neck from Anub10 so that I'm almost capped. (at 19 expertise now)

Drop about 3 expertise and use the SoV glyph instead? Or is that including the SoV glyph?


Without. All my expertise comes from:

Guise of the Midguard Serpent
Jorach's Crocolisk Skin Belt
Circle of Death
Wristbands of the Sentinel Huntress.

I will probably replace the belt with something better. Current BiS for me would be the Belt of Dragons from LW, as the EoC belts come up lower in Rawr.

Problem I'm running into, is that I'm already over hit cap, and I'm close to expertise cap, and Armor Pen is so downright awful for us. It looks like there are a couple of options in the new Dungeon coming, I might check into the heroic stuff and see if there is anything that I could get.
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Lolpaladins » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:14 am

It's MUCH easier to replace expertise gear with crit/haste/armor pen gear and use the 10 expertise skill glyph than it is to sacrifice ALOT of decent stats to get to the expertise cap while still keeping your other glyphs.

Is it worth giving up your consecration or exorcism glyph for 10 expertise skill worth of armor pen/haste/crit gear? I think so.
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Arcten » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:25 am

Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

I don't give up color slot bonuses, I enchant and gem for Haste (though maybe the Inscribed gems wouldn't be a bad way to go in yellow slots), and I just hit the badguys from behind. I'll take ArPen when I can get it, but never actively pursue it in gems, and Expertise kind of comes front loaded on a good chunk of my gear.
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Isetnefret » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:30 am

According to Rawr, I should not have let some of those mail DPS pieces get sharded :(
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby andx » Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:13 am

Arcten wrote:Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

I don't give up color slot bonuses, I enchant and gem for Haste (though maybe the Inscribed gems wouldn't be a bad way to go in yellow slots), and I just hit the badguys from behind. I'll take ArPen when I can get it, but never actively pursue it in gems, and Expertise kind of comes front loaded on a good chunk of my gear.

OK dont worry about color slot bonuses. Dont gem for haste, gem for str. Enchant for str. Live for str. Date str. Marry str. love str. it is your best stat. You will do a lot better dps wise without worrying about gem slot bonuses and just stacking str out the ass and getting your meta activated with tears.
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Baelor » Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:17 am

andx wrote:
Arcten wrote:Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

I don't give up color slot bonuses, I enchant and gem for Haste (though maybe the Inscribed gems wouldn't be a bad way to go in yellow slots), and I just hit the badguys from behind. I'll take ArPen when I can get it, but never actively pursue it in gems, and Expertise kind of comes front loaded on a good chunk of my gear.

OK dont worry about color slot bonuses. Dont gem for haste, gem for str. Enchant for str. Live for str. Date str. Marry str. love str. it is your best stat. You will do a lot better dps wise without worrying about gem slot bonuses and just stacking str out the ass and getting your meta activated with tears.

In other words, Arcten, you're doing it wrong.

Use the +21 agi/+3% crit dmg meta gem, a +10 stats prismatic gem in a blue slot or yellow slot somewhere to achieve the socket bonus on that one particular item, and then slot +20 str gems everywhere else, ignoring socket bonuses (bonii?).
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Selinaria » Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:31 am

Baelor wrote:
andx wrote:
Arcten wrote:Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

I don't give up color slot bonuses, I enchant and gem for Haste (though maybe the Inscribed gems wouldn't be a bad way to go in yellow slots), and I just hit the badguys from behind. I'll take ArPen when I can get it, but never actively pursue it in gems, and Expertise kind of comes front loaded on a good chunk of my gear.

OK dont worry about color slot bonuses. Dont gem for haste, gem for str. Enchant for str. Live for str. Date str. Marry str. love str. it is your best stat. You will do a lot better dps wise without worrying about gem slot bonuses and just stacking str out the ass and getting your meta activated with tears.

In other words, Arcten, you're doing it wrong.

Use the +21 agi/+3% crit dmg meta gem, a +10 stats prismatic gem in a blue slot or yellow slot somewhere to achieve the socket bonus on that one particular item, and then slot +20 str gems everywhere else, ignoring socket bonuses (bonii?).


^This.

(And yes it is bonii.)

Disregarding the very real importance of building and maintaining stacks of SoV quickly, expertise lost value in this patch for 1 main reason in my view. Seal of Blood had a check for both the white hit and the seal hit itself, and either check failing due to being dodged invalidated the seal proc.

Now it is solely reliant on the white hit landing and you will always get the seal proc. Now that the seal proc itself is no longer vulnerable to dodge/parry, it will hit a much larger % of the time even when not expertise soft capped/hit capped.
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