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[RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

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[RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby iobi » Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:28 pm

Hello All -

Quick question for you Rets out there.
To maximize performance, would you trade 85AP vs 9 Expertise Skill?

Thanks
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Dorvan » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:00 pm

9 expertise would be about 72 expertise rating, which is easily worth more than 85 AP, assuming you're not going over 26 expertise.

If you mean 9 expertise *rating*, then the 85 AP is far better.
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby iobi » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:11 pm

Thanks for your reply..

Yes that is Expertise Skill. I was comparing belts on the rating buster and could not decide between Razuvious Belt (with JC Expertise gem) or H Nexxus Belt with 2 Strenght Gems.

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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Punkss2 » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:46 pm

I believe the Rezuvious belt is better regardless. And If I recall, you gem strength always, unless for meta requirements or the socket bonus+gem stats is better than just the strength gem. Correct me if im wrong Bae :P
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Dorvan » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:59 pm

Hold on, you've got two independent decisions to make there: do you use the Nex belt or the Raz belt, and do you socket Strength or Expertise? When choosing between the two belts, the tradeoff you looking is is a small (7-11 Str) amount of Strength versus a some crit (15) and a large amount of expertise rating (38). Clearly the Razuvious Girdle is the winner here. Second is gemming. At your gear level Str is almost certainly worth more than expertise, which doesn't surpass Str in value until early Ulduar on average. Thus you want to socket for Strength.

For more specific answers (and you should do this anyway) download and learn to use Rawr.
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby uke » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:43 am

For gemming, always ALWAYS gem for strength. Expertise is important, but STR gives more bang for the buck per gem due to talents and kings. Only exception is gemming for a meta requirement as well.

At any time on my gear, I have STR gems stuffed everywhere, minus the green sta/hit gem in my added belt buckle for RED meta reqs.
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Lore » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:47 am

uke wrote:For gemming, always ALWAYS gem for strength. Expertise is important, but STR gives more bang for the buck per gem due to talents and kings. Only exception is gemming for a meta requirement as well.

At any time on my gear, I have STR gems stuffed everywhere, minus the green sta/hit gem in my added belt buckle for RED meta reqs.


Actually, below 26 expertise and in around late Naxx gear, expertise passes strength in DPS contribution point-for-point.
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:57 am

I had to get some Ulduar pieces before this was true for me. Then again, since Ret is my offspec, I wasn't quite sitting in BiS Naxx gear. But yeah, Hit > Str before the cap, and Exp > Str before the soft cap, if you have good enough gear.
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby iobi » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:57 am

That was my dilemma actually, I was trying to stay fairly close to the soft cap of 26. By using the JC expertise gem on Raz's belt, I can be at 25 or gain the extra strenght/AP by using the Nexxus belt and be at 18-19 expertise. I can gem it Str and be closer to 23exp (i believe) and not loose too much Str.

I really should start using the rawr program, but I think the program only accounts for perfect rotation/situation rather than the normal fights we usually do of moving around and following tanks around.

Thanks for the replies.

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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Lore » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:09 am

iobi wrote:I really should start using the rawr program, but I think the program only accounts for perfect rotation/situation rather than the normal fights we usually do of moving around and following tanks around.


This is true, but only has a real effect on the final "this is how much DPS you do" number. Stats are stats and will, for the most part, have the same effect on your DPS regardless of fight mechanics. There's a couple exceptions (crit on Hodir, for example) but they're relatively rare.
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby iobi » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:17 am

Lore wrote:
iobi wrote:I really should start using the rawr program, but I think the program only accounts for perfect rotation/situation rather than the normal fights we usually do of moving around and following tanks around.


This is true, but only has a real effect on the final "this is how much DPS you do" number. Stats are stats and will, for the most part, have the same effect on your DPS regardless of fight mechanics. There's a couple exceptions (crit on Hodir, for example) but they're relatively rare.


Thank you Lore,

I'll see if I can get around to downloading it when I get home tonight and fiddle with it.

iobi
80 - BE Paladin Prot/Ret - iobi
80 - BE DK Frost - Krozragal
80 - UD FFB Mage - Beenk
80 - Tauren Druid Bal/Feral - Zubeenk
80 - Orc Elemental Shaman - Steempy
80 - Gnome Combat Rogue - MsBehave
80 - Night Elf Fury/Prot Warrior - Mikaehl
80 - Night Elf BM Hunter - Mykaehl
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Fedaykin98 » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:06 pm

Where does Rawr tell you what stat to focus on? I'm merely a Rawr initiate. Based on your comments, I would guess I'd prefer to gem Expertise to 26 with my gear, but I've been gemming STR.
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Dorvan » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:18 pm

Fedaykin98 wrote:Where does Rawr tell you what stat to focus on? I'm merely a Rawr initiate. Based on your comments, I would guess I'd prefer to gem Expertise to 26 with my gear, but I've been gemming STR.


The best thing to do is simply allow Rawr the option of gemming for expertise (done via "edit gemming templates"), run the optimizer, and see whether is has you gemming for expertise or not. You can also look at the "relative stat values" option under the gear slot selection list, but there are a number of caveats with that.
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby rodos » Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:31 pm

Be aware that the rawr ret module is very sensitive to the latency setting. I've seen the value of the T7 pieces jump around a lot as latency setting is changed, presumably because of the effect of the 4pc bonus on the "rotation".

I suggest parsing some combat logs and making sure the simulated effective cooldowns are in line with what you really see under raid condition.
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Re: [RET-PVE] AP vs Expertise Skill

Postby Aither » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:54 am

I've had the same situation with an enchant choice for hands and bracers. I'm way under expertise cap so i picked to enchant expertise over AP on both hands and wrist.

I'm really unlucky with expertise drops, and it's my offspec gear anyways. I'm thinking of using the leather belt from Emblems of heroism just to get more expertise.

You should always aim for more expertise, all the guides say the gear has enough and you don't have to enchant or socket it, but then again if we all had BiS gear with all the stats we want we wouldn't make topics like this :)
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