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[Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby amh » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:09 am

sherck wrote:Follow-on question, in this example, does the frisbee jump if it has more charges left or does it just stay with the dead guy and is consumed?


Poke me if I haven´t replied to this later this evening. I´ll test it when I get home (you owe me a repair-bill!).
I used to play a paladin.
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Morningrise » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:40 am

sherck wrote:
Morningrise wrote:
Bundy wrote:Oh heres another mechanics question. about PoM.

Does it heal before or after the actual hit? If Tank has 5k HP left with PoM on and he gets hit for 6k, does he live or die?
If I had to guess id say he lives, but dont know for sure.

It heals after the hit. So in your example, the tank would die.


Follow-on question, in this example, does the frisbee jump if it has more charges left or does it just stay with the dead guy and is consumed?

Cheers,

Honestly I can't recall. I'll let amh catch the repair bill on that one. :wink:
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby amh » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:33 am

Right, that was expensive >.<

Setting:
- Target = Thrym
- Duelled Kieras down to 1 hp
- Kieras sat down to ensure a crit
- Cast PoM, Cerveza standing within 8 yards (PoM bounce-range is 20 yards, at least my untalented one)
- Thrym came over and crit Kieras
- PoM did not bounce.

Here you can see Cerveza did not get the PoM
http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq12 ... 161942.jpg

Combat-log:
http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq12 ... 162047.jpg

Sad-face :(
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby sherck » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:50 am

amh wrote:Right, that was expensive >.<

Setting:
- Target = Thrym
- Duelled Kieras down to 1 hp
- Kieras sat down to ensure a crit
- Cast PoM, Cerveza standing within 8 yards (PoM bounce-range is 20 yards, at least my untalented one)
- Thrym came over and crit Kieras
- PoM did not bounce.

Here you can see Cerveza did not get the PoM
http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq12 ... 161942.jpg

Combat-log:
http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq12 ... 162047.jpg

Sad-face :(
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Great Feedback! Thanks much.

Sad Panda that it does not bounce upon death...I wonder how many bounces are "wasted" in a typical raid situation where the person getting it does not take (or deal himself) damage or if the target dies with it on him/her. How overall effective is PoM ?

Cheers,
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Morningrise » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:03 am

Ideally to get the best use out of it you'll need an addon that tracks it. Personally I use Grid w/the Prayer of Mending plugin so I can see who has it, and how many bounces are left on it. If you see it sitting for a bit on a DPS or healer that's not taking damage, just re-cast. As for it's usefulness, it's INCREDIBLY useful. For Disc, it's one of the spells that can proc DA on crits, so you tend to cast it wherever the AoE damage is happening.
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Bundy » Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:50 am

Flash heal in my gear is 7.725 healing per mana, Gheal is 6.67 heal per mana. What Gheal does have is slightly higher throughput, namely that it's 3730 hps vs 3026 hps for flash (but with the major catch of assuming no overheal).


I still havnt heard anything about how this came about. Im really starting to think its nothing more than a fabrication.
According to my math, if Fheal and Gheal are both specced for best efficiency, Fheal ends up being 550 mana and Gheal 1050. It would be extremely close if GHeal was double the cast time but its not, its less than double the cast time. And Gheal heals for a little more than double with FHeal going for 3.8 - 4k and GHeal going for 7.8k - 8 - 8.3k.

So seriously, how did these heal per mana numbers come about? I would really like to know please.
Last edited by Bundy on Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Bundy » Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:05 pm

Ok thanks for clarifying on that, its now clear that GHeal is more efficient after all. Not saying im gonna sapm it though.

Different question.

If tank is not taking any damage whatsoever, but has the chance of taking a massive hit at any given moment. As a Disc Priest, should you or should you not heal him anyways in order to get more bubbles up on him.

Given this, what is an acceptable amount of overheals.
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Dorvan » Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:26 pm

Bundy wrote:Ok thanks for clarifying on that, its now clear that GHeal is more efficient after all. Not saying im gonna sapm it though.


I've exited this thread because it's not worth my time, I've directed you to the resources needed to get more information on the topic at hand. The numbers were not made up, but directly taken from my own character in game (grace stacked + about 2k SP). FHeal healed for about 4k non-crit and GHeal for about 8.1k non-crit. I cancelled my WoW account last week (that's also why I've only postyed a couple of times in the last week), so I can't post screen shots. Feel free to assume I've fabricated that info all you want....I'll let my history on this board speak for itself, I wouldn't soil my reputation by making up numbers for the sake of one silly thread.
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Bundy » Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:02 pm

Then show your work. Show me how you came up with these heal per mana numbers. Thats all that I ask, no screen shots or anything. Just the math you used to get those numbers.

My math on it is completly different so id like to know why that is.
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Bundy » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:53 pm

Alright then, since no one is gonna show how, I have no choice but to go with Gheal is moar efficient.
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby majiben » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:10 pm

Bundy wrote:Alright then, since no one is gonna show how, I have no choice but to go with Gheal is moar efficient.
Sure you do. You could do the math.
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Bundy » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:39 am

I did already, read a few posts back. Should be on page 4. It looked something like:

Fheal with talents and glyph = 550 mana/ 1.3 sec cast/4k heal

Gheal with Talents only = 1050 mana/ 2.3 sec cast/ 8.3k heal

So if you doubled Fheal to make it more similar to Gheal it would look like this:

Fheal x 2 = 1100 mana/ 2.6 sec cast/ 8k heal

Gheal x 1 = 1050 mana/ 2.3 sec cast/ 8.3k heal

Fheal ends up being more mana, longer cast time, and less of a heal!!

So when someone says Feal is more heal per mana, I dont see where they possibly could have gotten the numbers for that.

The only way I see that happening is if they improved Fheal as much as possible and left Gheal alone completly, and if thats the case.....well thats just stupid.

And I think we can all agree that when percentages are involved,(grace, DA) that the bigger the number, the greater the benifit you get from the percentage increase.

So if someone knows how these "heal per mana" numbers came to exist, I would love to see the process. Thanks in advance for whoever is able to, and actualy does this.
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Elsie » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:54 am

Fheal x 2 = 1100 mana/ 2.6 sec cast/ 8k heal

Gheal x 1 = 1050 mana/ 2.3 sec cast/ 8.3k heal

For what it's worth, flash heal in this example comes out to be 423 mana per second and greater heal comes out to 456 mana per second.

Improved Flash Heal (Disc): Decreases mana cost of Flash Heal by 15%
Improved Healing (Holy): Decreases mana cost of Flash Heal, Greater Heal, (Other stuff) by 15%

Flash Heal base mana cost: 20% base mana
Flash Heal after Talents: 14.45% base mana

Greater Heal base mana cost: 36% base mana cost
Greater Heal after Talents: 30.6
Assumption: Flash Heal heals for half of Greater Heal in half the time.
Effective Greater Heal cost: 15.3% base mana
Yes, this assumption is not entirely correct. It is merely for demonstration purposes.

As far as total healing, Greater Heal comes ahead but is less effective for efficiency. As far as Effective Healing, this is not necessarily true and ignores the Improved Flash Heal which comes into play fairly often.

In your example, Flash Heal healed for 8000. If the target was below 50%, this would have been 8800. This leads to two cases:
Case 1: The target is below 50%
In this case, Flash Heal would have done 8800 healing instead of 8000. In terms of time though, this is 3384.615 HPS for Flash Heal and 3608.6957 HPS for Greater Heal. However, HPS is a relatively bad benchmark. If the target lived 2.3 seconds, Greater Heal came out ahead in total healing. If the target lived 2.6 seconds, Flash Heal was ahead. You must, instead, look at other healers. If you have a paladin healing the target, Greater Heal is inefficient as the target just received a huge bomb Holy Light in 2.125 seconds anyway. If you only have druid hots going on the target, then Greater Heal makes more sense. As we can safely assume every 25 man is going to have a holy paladin, we can safely say that Flash Heal wins in this scenario since Greater Heal is causing over healing.

Case 2: The target is above 50%
In this scenario, Flash Heal would have healed 8000 and greater heal 8300. Greater Heal obviously comes out ahead in HPS and total healing. However, if the target is above 50%, there is no real necessity of Greater Heal. It will cause more over healing done than Flash Heal. Furthermore, Flash Heal is much faster of a cast so if the tank took burst damage that would bring him below 50%, it's much more likely to land a Flash Heal that brings him to a safer total HP sooner than Greater Heal. This is because you're casting nearly twice as many Flash Heals as Greater Heals.

Another thing to examine is Inspiration. If you're using stop casting to increase Greater Heal's efficiency, it's far more likely that Flash Heal will maintain Inspiration than Greater Heal. While this typically isn't of great concern as Penance crits often, it's still a minor point of contention.

Essentially, no one is arguing that Greater Heal is not more HPS. That's a closed discussion. It is obviously more HPS. In terms of efficiency, however, Greater Heal is not necessarily best. At the same time, no one here is debating the usefulness of Greater Heal in your arsenal. On certain fights such as Steelbreaker the tank is getting hit so incredibly hard that the higher HPS is probably worth it. On other, more common fights the HPS is unnecessary. You are, essentially, wasting mana. I suppose one could argue for Greater Heal in these fights allowing holy paladins, as an example, to spam Flash of Light. The problem with this is that other classes are much more efficient at bomb healing than discipline priests. Greater Heal cannot compensate for a fully hotted nourish or Holy Light spam right now. It's possible as Holy it can since other talents come into play.

Also note I am not debating the two 15% cost reduction talents are a mainstream spec. However, it's quite simple to see disc getting at least an extra 5% healing cost reduction for Flash Heal than Greater Heal. Furthermore, if we are to examine efficiency we must max out the efficiency of both spells - otherwise you're dealing with concerns other than efficiency in the first place and the whole conversation is moot.
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Bundy » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:52 am

Immediatly I noticed this

Improved Healing (Holy): Decreases mana cost of Flash Heal, Greater Heal, (Other stuff) by 15%


Imp Healing decreases the cost of Gheal and Penance and then some other stuff thats irrelevant. But it does not effect Fheal.

As far as total healing, Greater Heal comes ahead but is less effective for efficiency


How? Show the math that proves this. Heres my math.

Fheal x 2 = 1100 mana/ 2.6 sec cast/ 8k heal

Gheal x 1 = 1050 mana/ 2.3 sec cast/ 8.3k heal


Clearly showing Gheal being more effective and more efficient.

In your example, Flash Heal healed for 8000. If the target was below 50%, this would have been 8800


Where did you get this from? If target is below 50% you get an increases crit chance on Fheal, not flat out more heals.

Furthermore, Flash Heal is much faster of a cast so if the tank took burst damage that would bring him below 50%, it's much more likely to land a Flash Heal that brings him to a safer total HP sooner than Greater Heal. This is because you're casting nearly twice as many Flash Heals as Greater Heals.


yes nearly is the key word. Its nearly half the cast time, and nearly half the heal amount.

I understand nearly everyone here is in the raiding mindset, but I dont think its possible to predict whats going to happen in a raid. You dont know for a fact that a Paly healer is gonna be there, or a druid, or any other class. So im not gonna spec with assumptions like these. I can only spec assuming im the only healer there, thats the only thing thats garunteed in my book.

Furthermore, I really dont care if I overheal because if I crit with it, its moar bubbles as well as inspiration. I havnt had a fight yet that required me to use even half my mana pool. Granted im not in Ulduar yet, so that may or may not change.

Furthermore, if we are to examine efficiency we must max out the efficiency of both spells - otherwise you're dealing with concerns other than efficiency in the first place and the whole conversation is moot.


Did max out effiency on both spells. But I still didnt see anything about the "Fheal being more Heal Per Mana".
That was my main issue.

And I know....TL:DR right? Meh
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby katraya » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:15 am

I pulled up your toon in Rawr since I am not going to make any attempt at doing math myself. It is certainly not my strong suit.


Right now in your current set up, assuming no outside buffs besides your own+food+flask:

Greater Heal: 2.3 sec cast, 1236 mana cost
Average Heal (inc crits): 7498
Minimum Heal: 7165 Maximum Heal: 7831
Ave crit: 11247 Maximum crit: 11746
HpS: 3642.72 HpM: 6.77

Flash Heal: 1.38 sec cast, 591 mana cost
Average Heal (inc crits): 3650
Minimum Heal: 3491 Maximum Heal: 3809
Ave crit: 5457 Maximum crit: 5714
HpS: 2996 HpM: 6.98
If you were to swap your PoH glyph for the FH one your HpM for FH is 7.92 (not saying you need to, just adding it for reference)
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