[Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby amh » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:35 am

Bundy wrote:Plus the 25% haste afterwards makes Gheal something like a 1.7 sec cast. Are you guys saying an instant 6-8k bubble + glyph heal which would be 1200-1600, all that isnt enough to give you enough time to get a 1.7 sec cast off before the tank goes down?


A Greater Heal is not very impressive when your holy paladins are hammering the tank with permanently hasted Holy Lights that may or may not heal an additional target (beacon) or five (glyph) with quicker cast-time that heals for a lot more with much higher crit-rating at a much nicer mana-cost as their class is intended while you would be of more use to the raid throwing out some bubbles or PoMs or PoHs or flash-healing the tank to top him off between the 6 other healing effects rolling on him/her!

*deep breath*

My 2 cents :)
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby hoho » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:38 am

Bundy wrote:So to spec into imp Fheal seems silly because the increased crit chance would rarely come into effect. If I was using Fheal to keep the tank topped off, he shouldnt drop below 50%.
You do know that bosses often hit tanks for 30k+?
Bundy wrote:If you spec everything in Fheal and nothing in Gheal, obviously Fheal is more efficient.
I'm quite sure the efficiency/throughput calculations were made with 5/5 divine fury. I'm not sure about imp. healing though.
Bundy wrote:I was trying out some specs on a talent calculater, and if you dont spec into imp Fheal , you can get -0.5 cast time on Gheal as well as -15% cost on Gheal, Penance
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bVcbuhhVRIoffRxbxxcc Where would you take the extra point for penance?

And as said, holy light cast time is around 1.5-1.7s and has around 50-60% crit rating and even without crits it heals for a LOT more than gheal from disc priest. By spamming gheal you'll just be an inferior paladin-wannabe :-P
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:03 am

Bundy wrote:I was trying out some specs on a talent calculater, and if you dont spec into imp Fheal , you can get -0.5 cast time on Gheal as well as -15% cost on Gheal, Penance. Well I think so, im going off memory here.


You can easily take both Divine Fury and Imp Flash Heal, as I do in my fairly cookie cutter Disc spec (see sig). Imp Healing is harder to work in, but ultimately not worth it as penance is already extremely mana efficient and gheal, while a useful tool in the disc arsenal, makes up a relatively small portion of overall heals cast.

Flash Heal is your mainstay filler tank heal as disc, gheal mainly comes in handy for "oh shit PW:S -> Penance -> Gheal" type burst (Penance does not consume the borrowed time buff).
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Bundy » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:12 pm

You do know that bosses often hit tanks for 30k+?


I dont know this first hand no, but I know of it. I wast really talking about Ulduar 25 though, im not even 80 yet. Although I will be tonight.

And as said, holy light cast time is around 1.5-1.7s and has around 50-60% crit rating and even without crits it heals for a LOT more than gheal from disc priest. By spamming gheal you'll just be an inferior paladin-wannabe


Who said anything about spamming Gheal? This is what I said
Im not saying Gheal is my priority over other heals, but if I just used my PW:S im not gonna follow it up with a Fheal, im using Penance or Gheal, or PoH maybe.


Flash Heal is your mainstay filler tank heal as disc, gheal mainly comes in handy for "oh shit PW:S -> Penance -> Gheal" type burst (Penance does not consume the borrowed time buff).


Im pretty sure Penance does use the borrowed time buff actualy, why would it not?
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby katraya » Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:48 am

Bundy wrote:
Flash Heal is your mainstay filler tank heal as disc, gheal mainly comes in handy for "oh shit PW:S -> Penance -> Gheal" type burst (Penance does not consume the borrowed time buff).


Im pretty sure Penance does use the borrowed time buff actualy, why would it not?


No, it does not use up Borrowed Time. Perhaps because it doesn't have a "cast time" but is channeled? I am not sure why, but 100% sure it does not.

GHeal really lost a lot of it's oomph in this expansion. I rarely use it even as holy, although I am almost always raid healing. Even if I am in a 5man or healing a tank in VoA or soemthing it still sees very limited use.
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Bundy » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:09 am

Well although I dont look to see if the borrowed time buff is consumed with the use of Penance, I do notice the channeling of the spell going faster than usual. Just because it doesnt have a normal cast time doesnt mean its not effected by haste or other speed buffs. It just means the 3 heals over 3 secs, is now 3 heals over 2 secs.

What do you guys think about only putting 1 point into Grace. Thats what im doing right now and I still get 3 stacks really easily.
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Morningrise » Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:44 am

Bundy wrote:Well although I dont look to see if the borrowed time buff is consumed with the use of Penance, I do notice the channeling of the spell going faster than usual. Just because it doesnt have a normal cast time doesnt mean its not effected by haste or other speed buffs. It just means the 3 heals over 3 secs, is now 3 heals over 2 secs.
Penance does not consume BT, making for nice, fast healing combos. Penance is effected by haste & BT. PW:S + Penance + FHeal / GHeal is a staple healing combo with Disc.
What do you guys think about only putting 1 point into Grace. Thats what im doing right now and I still get 3 stacks really easily.

1 point Grace is gimp. My reasoning is that Grace can only be on 1 target at a time, and if your raid is positioning you correctly, you'll be on 1 tank the whole time. The only thing you'll be doing to raid heal is PW:S on other raid members, Holy Nova, and Prayer of Healing... all 3 do not apply Grace stacks. That said, you want 100% chance to put Grace up on your target, because you need it up fast when you're healing a tank. Keep in mind 1 cast of Penance puts 3 stacks of Grace up on a tank for an almost instantaneous 9% damage reduction buff. Disc priests aren't built around large heal bombs, but steady input stream of healing and damage absorption / reduction. We've got the best "OH SNAP HEAL" utility in the game, short of Lay on Hands & Swiftmend. Grace is part of that utility, so don't gamble with it.

I have to ask, what is so important in Holy that you're trying to worm out baseline cookie cutter Disc talent points for?

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bVcbuhhVRhsffRt0xxc
This is pretty much a mandatory Disc setup as I see it. 4 points to spare.

As always there's options:

Some priests like to shift Divine Fury points into a mix of Improved Renew, Healing Focus, and/or Spell Warding. I've played around with all of them, and personally found Divine Fury is my preference because I like the faster GHeals when I need them, and faster Smites for DPS when I don't need to heal.

Personally I take Focused Will for the +crit bonus. That said, it's optional - with a proper Disc gear setup you can get >25% holy crit pretty easy. If you really wanted to skip it for more Holy points, you could try working with http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bVcbuhhVRhsffRtMxxcM

Personally I see Desperate Prayer as required - I'm a tank healer... if I go down, my tank can go down, so I keep that 1 point as my personal extra healthstone every couple mins. It's instant so I can use it on the move when needed. Also alleviates healing pressure for raid healers if I take a hit - I can self-heal through DP & Binding Heal easily, so they can concentrate elsewhere.

I guess Power Infusion is optional, but for 1 talent point in this utility, a mini-hero at least twice a fight is a big DPS boost for a raider in your comp. Not to mention a huge HPS boost for when you need to hit your Prayer of Healing multiple times in a row - and this WILL happen.

Some Disc priests go GHeal vs Flash Heal. Again, I guess it can work, but personally I find it a bit contrary to the design of Disc healing. We don't get the amazing spellpower boost that Holy Priests do to land the big GHeal bombs. Instead, our high crit % and mana efficiency make Flash Heal a great, if not second to best next to PW:S & Penance, throughput option. Again, lots of steady, fast, snap healing is what Disc PvE healing is all about.

If you skip any talents for raiding below Power Infusion's tier, you should probably just give up & go Holy, because those are all the bread & butter Disc talents. As disc, no, you don't really need Improved Healing because A) you're already mana efficient as Disc and B) your mana regen is insane when you consider the huge mana pool + replenishment & rapture gains. No, you don't need Holy Reach as Disc. If you keep finding yourself trying to squander Disc points to go deeper into Holy, you could end up gimping yourself and your raid, and should probably consider looking into healing as a Holy Priest. They're 2 different worlds with 2 different purposes. Have to decide what one you want to go with.
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Bundy » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:01 pm

Im not at all trying to go Holy, I still have 53 points in Disc. What i have in the holy tree is imp renew, 5% crit, -0.5 cast time, inspiration, desperate prayer, -15% mana cost Gheal, Penance.

Having just the 1 point in grace probably isnt worth the extra 1% crit I took instead, or another -5% mana cost. Its just from testing, Grace seemed to apply alot more than 50% of the time. Everytime I cast Penance it would apply 3 times, its just on the Gheal, Fheal it would only apply about half the time. It still seemed fine to me, but I will most likely change it back sometime.

And I tested it last night, you were right about Penance, although it is effected by BT giving it faster cast time, it does not consume the buff. The only thing is there isnt much time left for anything else afterwards though. But my terrible ass Iraq internet probably sheds a good 2 secs off that with wasted lagg time.

1 point Grace is gimp. My reasoning is that Grace can only be on 1 target at a time, and if your raid is positioning you correctly, you'll be on 1 tank the whole time. The only thing you'll be doing to raid heal is PW:S on other raid members, Holy Nova, and Prayer of Healing... all 3 do not apply Grace stacks. That said, you want 100% chance to put Grace up on your target, because you need it up fast when you're healing a tank. Keep in mind 1 cast of Penance puts 3 stacks of Grace up on a tank for an almost instantaneous 9% damage reduction buff.


Oh and Grace isnt a damage reduction buff, its an increased healing buff. 9% damage reduction would be OP, lol.
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby katraya » Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:47 am

It's hard to really comment on your spec without seeing it, so I did a bit of armory stalking. I assume this is your priest:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... w&n=Gorden

I would definately not take the 3 points you have stuck in holy over 1 more point in Grace and the two points in Aspiration you totally skipped. A bit of saved mana isn't really worth losing the shortened cooldown on Penance. You also waste an extra point in holy in order to be able to reach Improved Healing.

Reflective shield is also pretty much wasted points aside from soloing since it will only apply to damage done to a shield on you. Great for leveling and soloing but not so much for healing.

You seem to have an unexplainable problem with Flash Heal but for anyone else who reads this those 4 points plus the 2 from RS would best be moved to Imp. Flash Heal, Grace and Aspiration.
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Bundy » Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:38 am

I would definately not take the 3 points you have stuck in holy over 1 more point in Grace and the two points in Aspiration you totally skipped. A bit of saved mana isn't really worth losing the shortened cooldown on Penance. You also waste an extra point in holy in order to be able to reach Improved Healing.

Reflective shield is also pretty much wasted points aside from soloing since it will only apply to damage done to a shield on you. Great for leveling and soloing but not so much for healing.


I would love to post my armory if I could, im at work and I cannot, sorry. I cant see the profile yoou linked, but its Gorden on Dragonmaw, and it sounds like you got it from your comments. Your stalking skils must be top notch! lol

Anyways, thats you. The fact that you use the word "wasted" so lackadaisicaly, just makes me not want to listen to your advice. How is making my main heal more mana efficient wasted?

I didnt know that reflective shield only works if I shield myself, if thats true I may think about changing that. As for Aspiration... the reduced CD does not seem good enough to me to warrant the points spent.
And may I please ask what point in Holy you consider wasted?

Fheal is just not my favorite heal. When everything is percentage based (+9% grace, 30% DA, etc) then the bigger the heal, the more the benefit from these things. This goes for mana cost reductions too. With my current spec, Gheal costs 1050 mana and heals for more than double (est. 2.3x) the amount of Fheal which costs 600 something. I know its slower and maybe more of the heal would be overheal, but thats just flat out better mana efficiency. Granted im not specced to imp Fheal so its probably not the fairest comparison.

I am listening to all the advice given, and I also appreciate all the feedback. But the fact of the matter is, ive seen no problems what so ever at this point. In fact most groups I heal for comment on how good my heals are. The way I see it is, there is no one perfect spec. Everybody likes different flavors. Ive always been about mana efficiency with my priest which is why ive never gone Holy. So most everything I do is geared around mana efficiency, i never want to go oom basicaly....ever. And so far I havnt, even under some pretty ridiculous circumstances. (Tank pulls boss when i have about 10% mana comes to mind)

Honestly, I wast even asking for advice about my spec, I asked about stat comparisons. But im glad you guys commented about the spec anyways because I learned a few things I didnt know before, which is always a good thing.

I will respec a tad, to get the 2 points in Grace, and proly another point in Divine Fury. So thanks for pointing out the reflective shield thing, that makes my choices a little easier.
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Dorvan » Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:42 pm

Bundy wrote:Fheal is just not my favorite heal. When everything is percentage based (+9% grace, 30% DA, etc) then the bigger the heal, the more the benefit from these things. This goes for mana cost reductions too. With my current spec, Gheal costs 1050 mana and heals for more than double (est. 2.3x) the amount of Fheal which costs 600 something. I know its slower and maybe more of the heal would be overheal, but thats just flat out better mana efficiency. Granted im not specced to imp Fheal so its probably not the fairest comparison.


Ugh. This paragraph is wrong in so many ways, let me break it down.

What your "favorite" heal is doesn't matter if you come to a site asking for advice. Flash heal is the more effective heal for Disc unless you need a quick BT-hasted Gheal bomb. It's more efficient, and it's fast cast time allows for extremely effective reactive healing. The line about "everything being percentage based favors GHeal" just makes me /facepalm. Yes, you'll get a bigger *absolute* benefit on a "per cast" basis, but the most important unit isn't "per cast" it's "per second" (as in healing per second) or "per mana" (as in healing per mana). If you actually bother to spec/glyph correctly, flash heal is much more efficient while only a little behind in throughput. It's the better heal, and observing that Gheal is more effective if you spec badly doesn't help your case at all.

Also, Penance is your most effective heal, period. Uf they could, Disc priests would happily spam penace all day long and never touch GHeal or Flash Heal. Being able to use your most effective heal 20% more often is absolutely worth 2 talent points by itself. Not taking it is simply shooting yourself in the foot.
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Bundy » Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:43 pm

Honestly, I wast even asking for advice about my spec, I asked about stat comparisons. But im glad you guys commented about the spec anyways because I learned a few things I didnt know before, which is always a good thing.


This is what I just said. I never asked for advice on my spec, although I will gladly listen to any rational adice given. But you cant come in here saying,
What your "favorite" heal is doesn't matter if you come to a site asking for advice

Nothing could be further from the truth. Its MY toon and MY choices to make, and again, I didnt ask for spec advice.

The line about "everything being percentage based favors GHeal" just makes me /facepalm. Yes, you'll get a bigger *absolute* benefit on a "per cast" basis


Defenition of Absolute: free from imperfection; complete; perfect
Given that, what else matters?
Lets do the math.
I respecced last night thx to your advice on the reflective shield, thx again for that 1 useful piece of advice.
I now have 2 points in imp Fheal for a 10% mana reduction. And Gheal is reduced by 15% through talents.
Fheal costs 650 mana, with a cast time of 1.34 secs and heals for about 3k
Gheal costs 1050 mana, cast time of 2.3 and heals for 7.5k

Fheal costs 38% less than Gheal Gheal costs less than double the amout of Fheal
Fheal cast time is 42% less than Gheal Translated Gheal cast time is less than double that of Fheal
Fheal heals for 40% less than Gheal Gheal heals for more than double that of Fheal

So you were right, Gheal is "absolutely" more effecient than Fheal. And if its cast time is less than double of Fheal, and it heals for more than double of Fheal, how in gods name would it heal for less per second?

2 x Fheals in 2.7 secs for 6k 20 Fheals in 27 secs for 60k
1 Gheal in 2.3 secs for 7.5k 10 Gheals in 23 secs for 75k Should I keep going?

Even if i specced to make Fheal as cheap as possible it is gonna be 550 mana which is STILL not as efficient as Gheal.

If using logic is wrong, then I dont want to be right.
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby katraya » Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:27 am

Dorvan wrote:Look, if you like how you play fine, it's your $15. But don't go giving advice when you really don't have the faintest idea of how to compare heal effectiveness.


Quoted for ironic appropriateness. You are totally correct. You can spec and heal however you like. However, you are certainly not the only person who will ever read this thread looking for advice on how to spec and play their disc priest. I, and I imagine Dorvan and anyone else has posted here, are trying to make sure that the "commonly held to be true" facts about playing disc are here for the benefit of other budding young disc priests. Just because you choose to play your toon a certain way doesn't mean that others should follow your lead when I'd say that a very very large percentage of skilled and experienced disc priests feel differently. The GHeal vs. Flash is one thing and I wish I was good at "the maths" so I could explain this to you better, but I am just not. However, not taking the shortened cooldown on Penance is quite another. Why in the world would you not want to use your core spell as often as possible?

And for the record you did ask for spec advise when you asked if 1 point in Grace was OK. That wasn't a question I was going to answer in a vacuum so I looked at your spec as a whole. You are very welcome to disregard the advise you have been given here.
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Bundy » Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:53 am

Just because you choose to play your toon a certain way doesn't mean that others should follow your lead


You think im wrong for not following your lead, or whosever lead it is, thats a contradiction right there.

Dorvan wrote:
Look, if you like how you play fine, it's your $15. But don't go giving advice when you really don't have the faintest idea of how to compare heal effectiveness.


The difference between advice I would give and yours, is I dont claim my choices to be "absolute" or "the best". There my choices and I can explain why I chose what I chose with great confidence. Its up to the person to decipher right from wrong.

As for not getting the 20% CD on Penance, i just dont feel its neccessary, its only 2 secs off and I have no problem filling that 2 secs with another heal. I wouldnt mind having it, but from the talents given and the allowable points id rtather have what I have for now.

All that aside. Math wise, are you guys still denying Gheal is more efficient than Fheal given my above post?

Are you really saying that if two priests (Geared the same) healed the same exact target in the exact same circumstances, that Fheal would heal for more, with less mana spent over the course of the encounter? Before you say anything, I know not all circumstances are the same and what not, but for test purposes only. Nothing but spamming Fheals vs Gheals, which is going to heal for more in the given time frame and which is gonna use less mana?
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Re: [Disc Priest] All other sites blocked

Postby Dorvan » Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:27 am

Bundy wrote:The difference between advice I would give and yours, is I dont claim my choices to be "absolute" or "the best". There my choices and I can explain why I chose what I chose with great confidence. Its up to the person to decipher right from wrong.


Well, I do claim that mine are better, because I've done my homework and my conclusions match the general theorycrafting community. If you don't like it, don't hang around theorycrafting sites and just enjoy your playing yuour toon how you want.

As for not getting the 20% CD on Penance, i just dont feel its neccessary, its only 2 secs off and I have no problem filling that 2 secs with another heal. I wouldnt mind having it, but from the talents given and the allowable points id rtather have what I have for now.


10% mana cost off over 20% off the Penance cooldown. You're sacrificing a ton of flexibility and throughput for a tiny bit of regen.

All that aside. Math wise, are you guys still denying Gheal is more efficient than Fheal given my above post?

Are you really saying that if two priests (Geared the same) healed the same exact target in the exact same circumstances, that Fheal would heal for more, with less mana spent over the course of the encounter? Before you say anything, I know not all circumstances are the same and what not, but for test purposes only. Nothing but spamming Fheals vs Gheals, which is going to heal for more in the given time frame and which is gonna use less mana?



Yes, I am denying that gheal is more efficient. Flash heal in my gear is 7.725 healing per mana Gheal is heal mana. Gheal is 6.67 heal per mana. What Gheal does have is slightly higher throughput, namely that it's 3730 hps vs 3026 hps for flash (but with the major catch of assuming no overheal). Bottom line is that flash is more efficient and allows you to make decision much faster, plus is easier to weave with bubbles/penance due to it's short casting time. Flash heal *is* the primary filler for disc, you won't find a disc priest site that says otherwise.

Sorry for not babying you by saying "you like your way, I like mine".
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