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[Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:24 pm

Dorvan wrote:Yeah, you're in a bit of an Edge case at the moment due to the extreme lack of expertise on you gear. As you have more and more expertise options, Aesir's will get further and further ahead because the weapon speed difference makes it an inherently favorable tradeoff.

I could talk through this all day, but the bottom line is: play with Rawr.


I have been! It's fun, and fun to talk about it. I think actually the racial bonus makes a huge difference here; it's being a draenei, more than gear options, that puts me behind to start with on expertise, and makes Worldcarver give relatively more expertise compared to the sword & maces. I mean, I do have the crafted belt, emblem bracers, and t8 gloves w/ expertise gem, so it's not like I have no expertise on my gear. But that racial bonus is huge.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:28 pm

Yep, but like I said getting it from at least one ring and your chest are key points on the mid-Ulduar gear progression path (while nice, the racial bonus only amounts to 1.5 gems, so it doesn't cause *major* shifts in the upgrade path, I made Dorvan a Draenei briefly to double check this). You shouldn't care about displacing hit in those slots because the hit can be replaced elsewhere, the expertise can't. Furthermore none of the best weapon choices have expertise in this tier, so the sooner you can adjust to not relying on your weapon for expertise, the easier you'll find upgrading down the road.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:31 pm

I'm not trying to defend Worldcarver as the optimal solution or anything; I use it because my guild has neither Yogg10 hard or Yogg25 down yet, so the maces are out for the time being, and Aesir's just hasn't dropped (if it did, loot rules would make it hard for me to get if there was a main spec plate dps toon in the raid).
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Modal wrote:I'm not trying to defend Worldcarver as the optimal solution or anything; I use it because my guild has neither Yogg10 hard or Yogg25 down yet, so the maces are out for the time being, and Aesir's just hasn't dropped (if it did, loot rules would make it hard for me to get if there was a main spec plate dps toon in the raid).


Sure, this conversation just started with your assertion that Aesir's Edge was the worst level 232 Str-based weapon, and my responses sohwing that that is in fact not true, Aesir's Edge being on par with the Earthshaper and better than the Worldcarver. That's nott to say that the Worldcarver is a terrible weapon, and as always, all gear decisions are subject to "you have to work with what you realistically can".
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:20 pm

Dorvan wrote:Sure, this conversation just started with your assertion that Aesir's Edge was the worst level 232 Str-based weapon, and my responses sohwing that that is in fact not true


I conceded a while back that it's better than Worldcarver even for draenei--again, I forgot about AP scaling for slow weapons.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Dragonzbane » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:41 am

Looking at the EJ thread:
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t57144-3_1_ret_bis_gear_lists/


Non-Hard Mode + Human + Plate Priority:

Head: [Conqueror's Aegis Helm]
Amulet: [Favor of the Dragon Queen]
Shoulders: [Conqueror's Aegis Shoulderplates]
Cloak: [Drape of the Deadly Foe]
Chest: [Steelbreaker's Embrace]
Wrist: [Bracers of Unrelenting Attack]
Hands: [Conqueror's Aegis Gauntlets] *
Waist: [Belt of the Titans] *
Legs: [Conqueror's Aegis Legplates] *
Feet: [Footpads of Silence]
Ring1: [Strength of the Automaton]
Ring2: [Sif's Promise]
Trinket1: [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]
Trinket2: [Wrathstone]
Weapon: [Earthshaper]
Libram: [Furious Gladiator's Libram of Fortitude]

He does have an "Other" download for the "Hardmode Plate Priority" list and a "Dwarf" download for the "Hardmode All Items" list.
You might consider downloading any of these list and just switch the race.

I'm pretty close to that above list aside from the fact that I don't have any of the Naxx/Maly Quest items, Arena Libram and Earthshaper.
Right now I'm debating getting the Leather boots made versus waiting for the generals boots to drop.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Joanadark » Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:33 pm

I don't understand why alot of people seem very concerned about keeping a plate priority. BiS is BiS, whether its plate, mail, leather, or cloth. We have no Armored-to-the-Teeth style talent that belefits from armor, and in general plate is pretty terribly itemized.
Why would you use Steelbreaker's Embrace when you could use Embrace of the Gladiator, or use Belt of the Titans when you could use Soul Devouring Cinch, and do more DPS?

Besides, that "plate priority" BiS list has leather boots in it. oops?
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Dorvan » Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:56 pm

The idea behind the EJ plate priority lists are that you're running with a guild where leather and mail gear ends up going only to classes which cap out at that armor class (not that stuff gets DE'ed, but that you have plenty of rogues/feral druids/hunters/enh shammies). For this reason agi/AP rings and necks are also often excluded where Str alternatives exist. In the case of crafted gear, however, the armor class priority doesn't apply, as it makes no difference in terms of gear allocation whether the item crafted with Runed Orbs is leather or plate......hence the *intentional* inclusion of the crafted leather boots in the EJ plate priority non-hard BiS list.

On a personal note, I wear only plate primarily for RP reasons. I'm a Paladin and I wear plate, dammit. I'm a casual/backup raider these days so I can afford a couple idiosyncrasies anyway, but with less than a 1% DPS difference between strict plate-only and leather/mail allowed sets, it's a perfectly reasonable way to play that won't cause alarm for all but the most bleeding edge of guilds.
Last edited by Dorvan on Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Baelor » Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:05 pm

Joanadark wrote:I don't understand why alot of people seem very concerned about keeping a plate priority.

I stick to plate for several reasons:

1. I'm irrational.
2. It looks better (to me, generally speaking).
3. I keep hoping that Blizzard will one day fix stat allocations and scaling so that leather/mail isn't better for plate-wearers and then I'll be wearing the "best" stuff as well as the "right" stuff.
4. Less competition for the plate stuff.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby amh » Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:08 pm

5. Saves your arse on trash!
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Dorvan » Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:20 pm

amh wrote:5. Saves your arse on trash!


...and bosses with adds too. Although like I said I'm plate-only primarily for RP/aesthetic reasons, giving up <1% DPS for a survivability boost has a little merit as well. If wearing leather was a large DPS boost I might feel guilty about staying all plate, but given the difference as it stands I have a clear conscience on the matter.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Fedaykin98 » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:14 pm

I'm with Lore, you work with your gear and what drops. Since my most recent two weapons have no Hit nor Expertise, and I've geared accordingly, Aesir's Edge is way ahead of Worldcarver, Eartshaper, or Hammer. The only 232 weapon I've seen is Worldcarver, and I passed to a Ret who had little Expertise. I don't want to have to rearrange my gear to take advantage of its stats.
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