[Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:46 pm

Modal wrote:Aesir's Edge is certainly an upgrade over the other stuff if you can be hit and expertise capped from armor alone (or maybe armor alone + gems in the sword), but I think that under most circumstances it will be better to have some hit or expertise on your weapon and stack strength elsewhere. The ArPen just makes it suboptimal for us; I'd rather have a weapon with hit/exp and more strength on armor.


You're not picking up Str elsewhere though, the amount of Str you have is more or less going to be fixed. Although gemming for expertise isn't necessary once you've gotten some more expertise pieces, gemming worth it can be a good option. For example, even with your current gear Aesir's Edge is a 9-10 DPS upgrade for you with regemming, grab some expertise pieces (rings in particular would be good for you), and Aesir's Edge pulls further ahead. What you *can't* get on your armor is a slower weapon speed, which increases seal, DS, and CS damage.

Lore wrote:As far as gearing actually works in the real world, it depends entirely on what drops for you.


Certainly this. The first 232 weapon I got was a Rune Edge. Not exactly prime Ret material, but still a solid upgrade to the Betrayer. Comparing Earthshaper and Aesir's Edge, they go back and forth depending on the rest of my gear, but they stay within 20 DPS of each other consistently. I don't plan on picking one up unless it's going to get DE'ed.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:10 pm

Dorvan wrote:You're not picking up Str elsewhere though, the amount of Str you have is more or less going to be fixed. Although gemming for expertise isn't necessary once you've gotten some more expertise pieces, gemming worth it can be a good option. For example, even with your current gear Aesir's Edge is a 9-10 DPS upgrade for you with regemming, grab some expertise pieces (rings in particular would be good for you), and Aesir's Edge pulls further ahead. What you *can't* get on your armor is a slower weapon speed, which increases seal, DS, and CS damage.


I admitted that Aesir's Edge is a tiny upgrade in my current gear (Rawr tells me 4 dps). I'm not sure how regemming would get me another 5 on top of that...are you suggesting more expertise gems?

I guess maybe what I'm not considering is that since procs (as opposed to strikes) aren't normalized for weapon speed, the contribution of AP not only makes expertise more valuable, it also makes slower weapon speed more valuable. (And this only because not all procs are limited by the swing timer--you get extras ever time CS & DS are off cooldown.) I was assuming that the gap would close if I had more AP, but perhaps that's not true. Oops.

What certainly is true is that if I could swap hit gems for strength gems, that would be a good thing. I could do that with one of the maces. So having hit on my weapon would mean I could pick up Str elsewhere. Either mace would be a big upgrade for me... I'm on a computer withour rawr right now, but if I remember right just swapping in Earthshaper and regemming to be exactly at hit cap was supposed to be about a 30 dps increase. I stand by my claim that the hit on the maces makes them better overall than the ArPen on Aesir's, unless you are struggling to shed hit rating over the cap on your armor.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:15 pm

Dorvan wrote:grab some expertise pieces (rings in particular would be good for you), and Aesir's Edge pulls further ahead.


I have an expertise ring around somewhere, but swapping it for darkstone ring and swapping in t8 shoulders over t7.5 was a dps upgrade for me, according to Rawr. I certainly would like more expertise on my armor, but I have had a hard time getting any gear with it other than the crafted belt.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:55 pm

Modal wrote:
Dorvan wrote:grab some expertise pieces (rings in particular would be good for you), and Aesir's Edge pulls further ahead.


I have an expertise ring around somewhere, but swapping it for darkstone ring and swapping in t8 shoulders over t7.5 was a dps upgrade for me, according to Rawr. I certainly would like more expertise on my armor, but I have had a hard time getting any gear with it other than the crafted belt.


What that really gets at it a need to pick up your hit somewhere else. Specifically, you'll want to replace your boots with either the Greaves of Iron Intensity (Iron Council-10) or the Boots of the Underdweller (Vezax25), freeing you of the need to have hit on both your rings. For expertise, in addition to rings the chest off of Iron Council25 is excellent (BiS pre-hard modes) and a good way to take care of your expertise needs.

In general, hit quickly becomes a non-issue with Ulduar gear. The majority of the hit you need will come from your legs, boots, and either weapon or trinket depending on your exact gear set up. The chest/head slots can also come into play depending on what alternate loot piece you have for your 5th tier slot.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:34 pm

I've been hoping to get either t8 chest or legs for hit, but it hasn't worked out yet. I have never had a hit trinket, mostly because prot is my main spec and we have a big, fairly casual raiding guild, so there's always some main spec dpser who has priority over me for such things.

I still think, as your comments indicate, a weapon is a good place to get some hit rating. Hence, one of the 232 maces if I could get one.

Then again, I'm really not sure what's wrong with wearing hit rings. The only non-239 (out of reach for my guild) rings I'd want over my Darkstone, really, would be Bladebearer's (has hit and expertise), or Sif's Promise (expertise instead of hit). Sif's Promise would be ideal if I also had a 232 mace. In my current gear, Darkstone is pretty much the best I can do.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:45 pm

Modal wrote:Then again, I'm really not sure what's wrong with wearing hit rings. The only non-239 (out of reach for my guild) rings I'd want over my Darkstone, really, would be Bladebearer's (has hit and expertise), or Sif's Promise (expertise instead of hit). Sif's Promise would be ideal if I also had a 232 mace. In my current gear, Darkstone is pretty much the best I can do.


There's nothing wrong per se with hit rings, it's just that the hit is generally best picked up in other slots (at least until late progression). Obviously if the hit rings are the best given your current gear, then that's what you should use. Personally, the following is the case for me:

Current rings: Sif's Promise and Ruthlessness

Best-in-slot set for content my guild has cleared: Sif's Promise and Loop of the Agile (Strength of the Automaton if you restrict to Str rings)

Best-in-Slot with all content clear: Sif's Promise and Seal of the Betrayed King
Last edited by Dorvan on Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:05 pm

Dorvan wrote:Best-in-slot set for content my guild has cleared: Sif's Promise and Loop of the Agile (Strength of the Automaton if you restrict to Str rings)


Again I just can't see why Crazed Construct Ring +less hit elsewhere wouldn't be better than Strength of the Automaton. So while I agree that those rings are good, it doesn't seem to me necessarily true that they're better than rings without hit. Except....

really if I could just get t8 chest & legs I'd have a whole different problem--then it would be hard for me not to be massively over the hit cap. And the set bonus would be a big boost, even without swapping out some of that hit. Mainly for that reason, I'd rather keep my Malygos25 boots; they're BiS other than the crafted boots if you assume hit cap (and ignore mail/leather), despite the ArPen. For the same reason, I would actually like to have better non-hit rings. But I guess that's what you're saying.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:12 pm

You want hit on your boots because the Malygos boots don't give you a great alternative for the hit you lose, the stat you load up on instead is a ton of ArPen. In contrast, the IC25 chestpiece gives you valuable expertise in exchange for your hit, relieving the overabundance of hit while giving you a very valuable stat. Pre-Hard mode you want Steelbreaker's Embrace+4pT8, with hard mode gear you can build around either the FL-25H legs or the Thorim-25H head, and it's not until that point that non-hit boots become a pretty good option (ultimately the head is a slightly better option, but they're close enoguh that it's easily a matter of what you can get first).

Modal wrote:Again I just can't see why Crazed Construct Ring +less hit elsewhere wouldn't be better than Strength of the Automaton. So while I agree that those rings are good, it doesn't seem to me necessarily true that they're better than rings without hit.


That's just how the math comes out...having to do with what stats get traded off and exactly what level of hit you reach with various gearing options (Crazed Construct has less hit than the boots, which may throw thins off a bit if you're using that instead). I can send you my Rawr files if you'd like. It's possible you'll have slightly different conclusions based on your race and the gear you have access to, but the overall gearing path should be quite similar.


There are a lot of small variations, but here are some various rules of thumb I've found to be virtually always true, based on a lot of time tinkering with Rawr:

Weapons: Rune Edge -> Worldcarver -> Earthshaper/Aesir's Edge -> Hammer of Crushing Whispers/Dark Edge of Insanity -> Voldre'thar

Armor: 4pT8 + any other plate piece -> 4pT8+Steelbreaker's Embrace -> 4pT8+Warhelm of the Champion/Plated Legguards of Ruination

Feet: Iron Intensity/Underdweller (normal set) -> Battlelord/Lifeless Night (hard set)

Trinkets: Darkmoon Card no matter what, possibly hit trinket depending on other gear (e.g. no hit weapon or Plated Legguards instead of Warhelm)
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:47 pm

Alright, let's just say that I'm working with somewhat different assumptions about gear availability (mainly because guild loot rules make it relatively difficult for me to acquire coveted offspec gear, so I tend to build around pieces available from badges and what I've managed to pick up; also 25hard gear is out of the question, but 10hard is not).

Anyway, I think the main thing to take away from the whole discussion is that I was forgetting that slow weapons provides a benefit that scales with AP, because of procs. I tend to think of them as providing a static contribution to dps. So even for a draenei, the expertise from Worldcarver may not surpass the slow speed of Aesir's.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:49 pm

Dorvan wrote:You want hit on your boots because the Malygos boots don't give you a great alternative for the hit you lose, the stat you load up on instead is a ton of ArPen.


Also, this is the same argument I made for preferring 232 maces to Aesir's to begin with! 8)
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:55 pm

Modal wrote:Also, this is the same argument I made for preferring 232 maces to Aesir's to begin with! 8)


Yes, but in the case of Aesir's it's overcome by the presence of sockets and the slower speed, which weigh more heavily than the ArPen in that case. There is no such factor in favor of the Malygos boots, you're just losing hit and a little Str for a ton of ArPen.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:02 pm

Dorvan wrote:
Modal wrote:Also, this is the same argument I made for preferring 232 maces to Aesir's to begin with! 8)


Yes, but in the case of Aesir's it's overcome by the presence of sockets and the slower speed, which weigh more heavily than the ArPen in that case. There is no such factor in favor of the Malygos boots, you're just losing hit and a little Str for a ton of ArPen.


Aesir's has a slower speed than Worldcarver, but not the maces, though. If you compare to Earthshaper and assume 2xStrength gems, you get

+8 Strength
-6 Crit rating
+64 ArPen
-70 Hit rating

Unless you can't use the hit rating, it looks to me like Earthshaper is the clear winner. (Edit: Aesir's does have a nice socket bonus for the remainder of the time during which you could put a Dragon's Eye in the blue slot, though, if you're a JCer, but especially since they announced the nerf I try to avoid that in straight-up item comparisons.)
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:06 pm

Modal wrote:Unless you can't use the hit rating, it looks to me like Earthshaper is the clear winner.


Key part bolded. In some sets you can use the hit, in other sets you can't (or more precisely, there are better tradeoffs to be made elsewhere). In my current gear for example Earthshaper wins, with a couple hit upgrades Aesir's comes out on top. That why they're listed on the same "tier" in my list of rules of thumb. Aesir's Edge is certainly better than the Worldcarver, and goes back and forth with the Earthshaper, with neither ever having more than a 20 DPS edge (when you gear around it) in my experience.

Like I said, I've look over this in Rawr many, many times. There isn't one single upgrade path, but I've found the rules of thumb I've listed to be very consistent under a variety of gear availability scenarios.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:13 pm

Dorvan wrote:
Modal wrote:Unless you can't use the hit rating, it looks to me like Earthshaper is the clear winner.


Key part bolded.


Right right, nobody is ignoring that. Again, same argument with the boots though. You're just saying that under certain assumptions about gear availability, you're more likely to want hit on your boots than on your weapon.

Anyway, in my current gear, Rawr has Aesir's come in at only 2 dps more than Worldcarver, so although in general I am willing to grant now that Aesir's is better, it's certainly not necessarily a huge upgrade. Like I've said already, I was forgetting about the AP scaling component to slow weapons, so I was thinking the expertise on Worldcarver would scale better with additional AP. But in fact, not necessarily.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:20 pm

Modal wrote:Right right, nobody is ignoring that. Again, same argument with the boots though. You're just saying that under certain assumptions about gear availability, you're more likely to want hit on your boots than on your weapon.


It has to do with the tradeoff ratios (you're *losing* some str in addition to the hit by going with Melancholy, whereas you're gaining some Str with Aesir's), and how the chunks of hit happen to fit together. Ultimately choosing gear that gets you as close to 230 as possible without gemming can tilt things in favor of certain pieces. As it happens, the way things shake out favors hit boots until late progression. Whether or not Aesir's comes out ahead is largely (though not entirely) a function of whether you've got one of the Ulduar hit trinkets and the fact that the best non-hit trinkets come from Alagon, and therefore are excluded from many posisble gear set ups.

Anyway, in my current gear, Rawr has Aesir's come in at only 2 dps more than Worldcarver, so although in general I am willing to grant now that Aesir's is better, it's certainly not necessarily a huge upgrade. Like I've said already, I was forgetting about the AP scaling component to slow weapons, so I was thinking the expertise on Worldcarver would scale better with additional AP. But in fact, not necessarily.


Yeah, you're in a bit of an Edge case at the moment due to the extreme lack of expertise on you gear. As you have more and more expertise options, Aesir's will get further and further ahead because the weapon speed difference makes it an inherently favorable tradeoff.

I could talk through this all day, but the bottom line is: play with Rawr. I'm quite confident that my rules of thumb are accurate, but there's no point in me continuing to try and explain every little detail when you're free to try various combination of gear availability yourself.
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