[Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

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[Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Beriis » Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:56 am

I raid as ret for my off spec, and since Ulduar I have been slowly gaining quite a bit of armor penetration on my gear. Now I know that ArP is not as good for Paladins as it is for say Warriors. I also know that ArP gets better the more of it that you have.

So the question is, is there ever a point (in achievable gear levels) where it would be worthwhile for a paladin to actively seek ArP?

I recently transferred servers so armory doesn't seem to have found me yet, but I'm sitting at about 20% ArP in my current ret gear. I also just got Grim Toll in a Naxx pug which is actually what precipitated this question. With Grim Toll procced I'm just under 70% ArP. Otherwise, I'm hit capped 21 Exp 30% Crit 3600ish AP unbuffed. Basically I'm just concerned with whether I should be trying to shed this ArP or since it's already there should I emphasize it.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Dorvan » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:20 am

No, you should never actively seek ArPen. At best, it goes from terrible to slightly less terrible as you get more of it. On the other hand, there's no need to actively shed it necessarily either (i.e. by getting a lower quiality item without armor pen). Get Rawr and you'll have a more specific answer to your question.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Elsie » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:31 am

It isn't worth actively seeking out, but ArP also isn't a completely useless stat. Generally I like to think of it as a 'side bonus' on an otherwise decent item. For example, Runed Edge has ArP on it and it's a fabulous two-handed sword. I'm pretty sure the top two-hander in the game have ArP on it - or at least many of them. The wrists from hard mode 10-man has Armor Pen on them, and they come out better in rawr than wrists that would expertise cap someone.

Is it the best stat in the world? No, not for retribution paladins. Does it do nothing? No, it's still more dps.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Dorvan » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:36 am

Elsie wrote:Is it the best stat in the world? No, not for retribution paladins. Does it do nothing? No, it's still more dps.


Well yes, is obviously increases your DPS, it's just worse at doing so than any other melee DPS stat, and by a good margin (~25-30%). Hence the thing about ArPen isn't that it doesn't increase your DPS, but that it does a worse job of doing so than whatever stat would've appeared there instead of it. There are pieces with ArPen that are worth using, they just would be better pieces if they had something else there instead.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Elsie » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:41 am

Dorvan wrote:
Elsie wrote:Is it the best stat in the world? No, not for retribution paladins. Does it do nothing? No, it's still more dps.


Well yes, is obviously increases your DPS, it's just worse at doing so than any other melee DPS stat, and by a good margin (~25-30%). Hence the thing about ArPen isn't that it doesn't increase your DPS, but that it does a worse job of doing so than whatever stat would've appeared there instead of it. There are pieces with ArPen that are worth using, they just would be better pieces if they had something else there instead.

Hence, it's not the best stat in the world =)
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Argali » Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:07 am

The key phrase here is actively seek. Like gem or enchant. It's not to be avoided like the plague though.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby fafhrd » Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:58 pm

avoiding [my] drape of the faceless general like the plague is a-ok imo -.- 6 people in a 10 man wanting it is enough
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Treck » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:33 am

Elsie wrote:For example, Runed Edge has ArP on it and it's a fabulous two-handed sword. I'm pretty sure the top two-hander in the game have ArP on it - or at least many of them.


Runed Edge looks good, but imo its prolly the worst 232 weapon there is for a paladin, maybe the polearm from general but its basicly the same thing, even the 232 pvp weapons should be better. Fast weapon with AP instead of str? doesnt rly go high up in my list.
Worldcarver is fast, but atleast str and a lot of it.
Earthshaper is amazing imo and Crushing whisper from yogg 10man hardmode is very similar.
Aesirs Edge is a great weapon with ArP tho, aswell as Voldrethar, the ilvl points could clearly have been spent on something else to optimise it for retripallys, but i dont mind.
I beleave ppl rank Voldrethar as No1 weapon, and the pvp 244 weapons as 2nd place, then for a retri paladin i beleave Crushing whisper is ahead of Aesirs, but if earthshaper is before Aesirs or not, im still unsure of.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Aubade » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:52 am

uh i do believe it goes

Vold'rethar > Furious Glad tier 2 > Aesir's Edge > Earth shaper = Furious Glad tier 1 IIRC.

And to answer the OP's question, it's not anything you should seek out, but it's not something you shouldn't pick up if the rest of the item is good.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Elsie » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:54 am

Treck wrote:
Elsie wrote:For example, Runed Edge has ArP on it and it's a fabulous two-handed sword. I'm pretty sure the top two-hander in the game have ArP on it - or at least many of them.


Runed Edge looks good, but imo its prolly the worst 232 weapon there is for a paladin, maybe the polearm from general but its basicly the same thing, even the 232 pvp weapons should be better. Fast weapon with AP instead of str? doesnt rly go high up in my list.
Worldcarver is fast, but atleast str and a lot of it.
Earthshaper is amazing imo and Crushing whisper from yogg 10man hardmode is very similar.
Aesirs Edge is a great weapon with ArP tho, aswell as Voldrethar, the ilvl points could clearly have been spent on something else to optimise it for retripallys, but i dont mind.
I beleave ppl rank Voldrethar as No1 weapon, and the pvp 244 weapons as 2nd place, then for a retri paladin i beleave Crushing whisper is ahead of Aesirs, but if earthshaper is before Aesirs or not, im still unsure of.

I'm not sure why I said Runed Edge but I meant Aesir's Edge. For Ret, both PvE 239 weapons are the top, and then the pvp weapon only is third depending on your gear, but for me it isn't.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:28 am

I think because of all the hit and expertise on them, you can't really directly compare weapons very easily (I like this fact). I'm hit capped without a weapon, and [World Carver] very nearly expertise caps me. Rawr tells me it's only 4 dps less than [Aesir's Edge] in my current gear, and better than the 232 maces, despite its faster speed. My ret gear still doesn't have that many 226-level pieces; it would surely overtake Aesir's with a bit more AP, although of course additional ArPen would make the ArPen on Aesir's more valuable (but not as quickly as Strength would make the Expertise on my axe better).

Now, if I was far enough from the hit cap to utilize the hit rating on them, [Earthshaper] and [Hammer of Crushing Whispers] would be a little better than either of the non-mace weapons. If I got either of those, I would regem from hit to strength and gain a small net dps boost.

So overall, [Aesir's Edge] is probably the worst of the Strength-based level 232 2-handers for a ret paladin. But it really depends on your other gear; the value of the Expertise on [World Carver] increases with AP, for example, and Aesir's is not a wrong choice.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby uke » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:46 am

heh, I'm practically drowning in expertise atm. Without even trying, I believe I'm sitting at 33 expertise skill right now, just from it being tacked on gear upgrades. Heck, I could probably smack a boss from any angle right now if I wanted to with no ill effect :lol:
Pally's been relegated to AH duties.

RAWR'ing it up as a bear now, with a side of boomkin.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:34 am

Modal wrote:So overall, [Aesir's Edge] is probably the worst of the Strength-based level 232 2-handers for a ret paladin. But it really depends on your other gear; the value of the Expertise on [World Carver] increases with AP, for example, and Aesir's is not a wrong choice.


It depends on the your and the rest of your gear. The Worldcarver isn't a particularly great options for humans and dwarves because they can get extra expertise from maces (and in the case of humans, swords as well). Since hit and expertise can both be capped, there's also the question of where you get those stats from. Capping exp on your armor and Using a 3.6 weapon should come out better than using the Worldcarver assuming 226+ quality gear. Personally, for now the maces the the best 232 weapons for me, but depending on what other pieces I acquire Aesir's Edge will eventually pass up Earthshaper (due to the sockets).
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:28 pm

Dorvan wrote:It depends on the your and the rest of your gear. The Worldcarver isn't a particularly great options for humans and dwarves because they can get extra expertise from maces (and in the case of humans, swords as well).


I think I took most of that into account, although I had forgot this fact about dwarves and humans. I'm a draenei, so for me Worldcarver gives a great deal more relative expertise.

I have also had a much harder time finding enough expertise on armor to get capped, whereas the hit cap is pretty easy (the draenei aura helps with that, too, admittedly, though some humans and dwarves can also count on that). Another factor that made Worldcarver appealing to me in particular is that I was upgrading from Jawbone, which has the same stats. So it fit easily into the gear I already had.

Aesir's Edge is certainly an upgrade over the other stuff if you can be hit and expertise capped from armor alone (or maybe armor alone + gems in the sword), but I think that under most circumstances it will be better to have some hit or expertise on your weapon and stack strength elsewhere. The ArPen just makes it suboptimal for us; I'd rather have a weapon with hit/exp and more strength on armor.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Is ArP ever worth it?

Postby Lore » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:39 pm

As far as gearing goals, Aesir's Edge beats out the other options in pure stats due to the 2 gem slots. It's just better to pick up the expertise/hit on gear and get the extra strength.

As far as gearing actually works in the real world, it depends entirely on what drops for you.
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