Remove Advertisements

[Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Baelor

Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Joanadark » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:18 am

Divine Storm and Crusader Strike DO both proc seals.
For that reason they are higher priority than judgement.

White swings and seal damage are supposed to be your two biggest sources of damage by a fair margin. CS should fall 3rd.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Kelaan » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:33 am

Then ... why is Judgement considered higher priority in the canonical ("Cookie-cutter"?) priority espoused by EJ and others here? (CS > Judge > DS) Is that due to longer-term cooldown conflict resolution/avoidance, or what?
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 4037
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Fedaykin98 » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:13 am

Yeah, I haven't heard of CS > DS > J until just now.
Image
User avatar
Fedaykin98
 
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:13 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Joanadark » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:53 pm

Then ... why is Judgement considered higher priority in the canonical ("Cookie-cutter"?) priority espoused by EJ and others here? (CS > Judge > DS) Is that due to longer-term cooldown conflict resolution/avoidance, or what?


I don't know.
Possible due to mana issues?
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Elsie » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:13 am

Joanadark wrote:
Then ... why is Judgement considered higher priority in the canonical ("Cookie-cutter"?) priority espoused by EJ and others here? (CS > Judge > DS) Is that due to longer-term cooldown conflict resolution/avoidance, or what?


I don't know.
Possible due to mana issues?

Because it's mathematically better over time. The CS > J > DS pulls ahead because it fills more GCDs. If you did CS > DS > J you would have more dead GCDs.
User avatar
Elsie
 
Posts: 3819
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Lore » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:55 am

Elsie wrote:Because it's mathematically better over time. The CS > J > DS pulls ahead because it fills more GCDs. If you did CS > DS > J you would have more dead GCDs.


This. It just fills out the rotation better.
User avatar
Lore
Global Mod
 
Posts: 7757
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:52 am

Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Kelaan » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:36 am

That's what I though. :) It means that it's not a pure "which does more damage per single cast" priority, but rather which lead to an optimal string of attacks. =)
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 4037
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Joanadark » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:05 am

After doing a lot of testing on the PTR with the new system, I have to say I'm pretty unhappy.
I agree with what this EJ poster had to say:

I don't often complain about PTR's (because they are in testing phase after all), but after playing around on it myself for about 2 hours I have to say I don't like where ret is going. The "rotation" is somehow messier than it is on live and requires no more skill, AoW effectively changes nothing for pve, mana becomes a huge issue again even with raid buffs and so on. Even running with the horrible CS glyph I was still quite mana negative beating on the dummies - we simply cannot afford to keep SS up on anyone in pve now.

So what needs to change?
- CS needs to either go back to its' original cooldown and damage, or be lowered to a 3s cooldown with its' mana cost reduced; 4s just does not work in any way and feels extremely clunky, since our GCD is still 1.5s
- Mana being a problem again can simply be fixed by lowering CS and Exorcism mana costs. You'll note that on live we are mana negative, but can last between 7-12mins (vs 3 mins on the ptr).
- AoW has to do something more than just make exo instant. It needs to also reset the cooldown of exo / increase the damage of your next one; for both pvp and pvp purposes there has been no decision making introduced, you still hit exo every 15s.
- We still don't have proper offensive tools, and will certainly need them in pvp now... the resil change is quite noticeable.

As has been said by many of you, SoC is just utterly useless for anything on the ptr. You won't even see it being used in pvp because the judgement hits for so little and no longer autocrits stunned things - it won't be used for pve trash either, because if your damage actually matters on trash, it means the mobs are alive for more than 15s each anyways. I'm pretty sure we've given them almost every idea imaginable for ways to make it viable or desired (from debuffs to damage to ms ect).. perhaps we should take the hint and just give up on SoC ;p
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Elsie » Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:01 am

They should also add a Crusader Strike debuff.

Whenever Crusader Strike deals damage, it applies a debuff that increases [Abilities'] damage by [x%]. Additionally, if the opponent is casting a spell, Crusader Strike's debuff will also reduce that player's damage and healing by [y%]. Stacks to [z].

For example:
Whenever Crusader Strike deals damage, it applies a debuff that increases your next Divine Storm or Exorcism damage by 2%. Additionally, if the opponent is casting a spell, Crusader Strike's debuff will also reduce that player's damage and healing by 6%. Stacks to 5. Whenever the target affected by this debuff is dealt damage from Divine Storm or Exorcism they lose 1 stack of the debuff.

If the CD on Crusader Strike is changed, this means you have to toss up GCDs with damage bonuses. Simply remove the CD on Crusader Strike and make it similar to Sinister Strike - a spammable means to increase your DPS. In PvP, you now have offensive utility that can cost you your damage on the target so you have to think.

Also, making Crusader Strike like this means we might finally be able to say "Use consecration for aoe, else use Crusader Strike."
User avatar
Elsie
 
Posts: 3819
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby bub64882 » Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:37 pm

Maybe a hemmorage (sp?) type debuff? Something that would add to raid wide damage and not just ours?
bub64882
 
Posts: 966
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:48 pm
Location: Gorgonnash

Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Khayne » Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:48 am

i were also thinking on CS debuff, thought either that "ramps up damage" like elsie said, or if thinking pvp, i thought maybe a "increases all mana costs by X%" would go through better since it's burst of ours that everyone bitches about.

a reworked mortal strike, while i'd want one, does feel abit boring.

That hemorrhage idea ain't too bad either though, basially same debuff from to more than rogues.
Image
Khayne
 
Posts: 800
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:48 pm
Location: Finland

Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:25 pm

Kelaan wrote:Then ... why is Judgement considered higher priority in the canonical ("Cookie-cutter"?) priority espoused by EJ and others here? (CS > Judge > DS) Is that due to longer-term cooldown conflict resolution/avoidance, or what?


I bet that's the theoretical reason for it, but I prioritize Judgement/Divine Plea because if I don't and I keep SS up as well as tossing out an occasional heal, I run oom, especially on fights where I judge light and we have no other pally for wisdom. (I don't run with SoB glyph.)
Image
Modal
 
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:36 am

Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Joanadark » Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:31 am

Modal wrote:
Kelaan wrote:Then ... why is Judgement considered higher priority in the canonical ("Cookie-cutter"?) priority espoused by EJ and others here? (CS > Judge > DS) Is that due to longer-term cooldown conflict resolution/avoidance, or what?


I bet that's the theoretical reason for it, but I prioritize Judgement/Divine Plea because if I don't and I keep SS up as well as tossing out an occasional heal, I run oom, especially on fights where I judge light and we have no other pally for wisdom. (I don't run with SoB glyph.)


You'll prolly find that your DPS is higher running with the standard rotation and reglyphing blood, rather than what you are doing.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Treck » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:40 am

Posting here again since im now officially Prot/ret combo for hardmodes. (also got a sweet new weapon priorised to me among those who wanted to off it for that reason ^^)
But as i understand it, DMG output wise its CS > DS > Judge > EXO > Cons (maybe last 2 in the other order?)
But you still wanna prio Judgement over DS to fill more GCDs?
So your FCFS list would basicly be more like
CS > Judge > DS > EXO > Cons?
So whenever your GCD goes off, if you have both judgement and DS off CD, you always use judge beforehand?
Image
User avatar
Treck
 
Posts: 2128
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:10 am

Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Elsie » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:07 pm

Treck wrote:Posting here again since im now officially Prot/ret combo for hardmodes. (also got a sweet new weapon priorised to me among those who wanted to off it for that reason ^^)
But as i understand it, DMG output wise its CS > DS > Judge > EXO > Cons (maybe last 2 in the other order?)
But you still wanna prio Judgement over DS to fill more GCDs?
So your FCFS list would basicly be more like
CS > Judge > DS > EXO > Cons?
So whenever your GCD goes off, if you have both judgement and DS off CD, you always use judge beforehand?

Think of it this way. DS does more damage than Judge. However, If you prioritize DS, you end up with more unused GCDs. Thus, for every GCD not used you're essentially "missing" an attack. This is no different from, say, not being hit capped and missing an attack.
User avatar
Elsie
 
Posts: 3819
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:12 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Off-specs & Other Classes

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
?php } else { ?