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[Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

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[Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Joanadark » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:21 am

Split the topic from the Libram of Discord discussion - this train of thought is pretty far from that station at this point. -Baelor

Cause the FCFS priority is stuff>Consecrate>DS>stuff, last time I checked it.

Unless of course it's changed.

(assuming target is not undead)
CS>HoW>DS>Judge>Exorcism>Consecrate

Even when glyphed, consecrate is absolutely dead last in priority.
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Re: [Ret] Libram of Discord?

Postby Lore » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:50 am

Joanadark wrote:
Cause the FCFS priority is stuff>Consecrate>DS>stuff, last time I checked it.

Unless of course it's changed.

(assuming target is not undead)
CS>HoW>DS>Judge>Exorcism>Consecrate

Even when glyphed, consecrate is absolutely dead last in priority.


Consecrate still beats Exo unless you have both the Exo glyph and 2pc T8.

EDIT: And even then I'm not completely sure. Rawr shows the highest numbers with my gear+raid buffs with CS>HoW>Judge>DS>Cons>Exo. It's not by enough to be noticeable (which makes it pretty hard to tell in the real world), but the numbers are higher.
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Re: [Ret] Libram of Discord?

Postby Elsie » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:14 pm

EDIT: And even then I'm not completely sure. Rawr shows the highest numbers with my gear+raid buffs with CS>HoW>Judge>DS>Cons>Exo. It's not by enough to be noticeable (which makes it pretty hard to tell in the real world), but the numbers are higher.

Yeah lately I've been iffy on it as well. I do tend to use exorcism as a higher priority than consecrate though. My reasoning is more along the lines of movement concerns though. A lot of bosses have shitty movement depending on your guild's strategy, and I find Thorim(p2), Hodir, Ignis, Yogg-Saron (adds), Freya p2/large treant, etc have a fair bit of movement.

I think Exorcism with the glyph and 2pc t8 averages higher, but can be lower if you don't crit enough or have the appropriate raid buffs such as boomkin aura.
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Re: [Ret] Libram of Discord?

Postby Joanadark » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:42 pm

Honestly, the whole FCFS system is very fluid. If youre DPSing the way youre supposed to, in most real situations youre going to deviate slightly from it fairly requently.
A good example would be against Mimiron. You know the boss is going to shock blast in a second and all your abilities are off cooldown.
What you should do is CS right as he starts casting shock blast, turn and run out, consecrating the ground as you turn so the back edge of it overlaps him, Judge him as you are running out since you can Judge backwards over your shoulder, turn at the apex of your run-out and exorcism as you run back in, Divine Storm as you are almost there since it's wide radius will hit him before you are in melee range, and right as you reach melee range again CS should be coming back up.
Meanwhile Consecration has been ticking underneath him for the whole Shock blast.

Intelligent modification of your rotation is a big part of skilled DPS as a ret paladin. Many rets I know would simply stop DPSing, run out, and then run back in, and then start DPSing again. Thats not how you beat hard modes.

(obviously shock blasts are a specific example. Many different examples of modifying the FCFS priority system can be made throughout ulduar.)
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Re: [Ret] Libram of Discord?

Postby Argali » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:55 pm

I think maybe some people are missing the point that the priority list of the FCFS is for single target, boss not moving, like Patchwerk.

Also, I'd be interested if people actually had some data on exo moving up the list if you use the glyph and have the set bonus.
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Re: [Ret] Libram of Discord?

Postby Baelor » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:57 pm

Joanadark wrote:Honestly, the whole FCFS system is very fluid. If youre DPSing the way youre supposed to, in most real situations youre going to deviate slightly from it fairly requently.
A good example would be against Mimiron. You know the boss is going to shock blast in a second and all your abilities are off cooldown.
What you should do is CS right as he starts casting shock blast, turn and run out, consecrating the ground as you turn so the back edge of it overlaps him, Judge him as you are running out since you can Judge backwards over your shoulder, turn at the apex of your run-out and exorcism as you run back in, Divine Storm as you are almost there since it's wide radius will hit him before you are in melee range, and right as you reach melee range again CS should be coming back up.
Meanwhile Consecration has been ticking underneath him for the whole Shock blast.

Intelligent modification of your rotation is a big part of skilled DPS as a ret paladin. Many rets I know would simply stop DPSing, run out, and then run back in, and then start DPSing again. Thats not how you beat hard modes.

(obviously shock blasts are a specific example. Many different examples of modifying the FCFS priority system can be made throughout ulduar.)

Man, you really thought that through. I usually just make sure to Consecrate as I'm running out and use Judge/Exo as I run back in.

(Not knocking the method, that's sound theorycraft - I just never broke down the "run away" scenario into such detail like that.)
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Re: [Ret] Libram of Discord?

Postby Levantine » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:30 pm

Sorry Baelor, you're not the best Ret Paladin I know anymore.

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Re: [Ret] Libram of Discord?

Postby Elsie » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:13 am

Man, you really thought that through. I usually just make sure to Consecrate as I'm running out and use Judge/Exo as I run back in.

(Not knocking the method, that's sound theorycraft - I just never broke down the "run away" scenario into such detail like that.)

In my opinion, it's not feasible either. He's talking about Crusader strike (GCD), turn around and consecrate (GCD), judge. That gives you roughly 1 second to move 5 yards to out of shockwave range where RNG and synch lag can randomly say "you died despite what you thought."

The safe bet is hit whatever is off CD and GTFO - then hit whatever you can on your way out. Even in the perfect scenario described, you're better off strafing away since you might get a lucky melee swing in. Also, if you strafe in a non-directly back way, you will have a higher chance of a melee swing at the cost of having to go 16-20 yards. The gain from this is assuring you can consecrate and/or judge while exiting while never stopping your movement. The coding the game uses to avoid lag differences is to "predict" where you are going to be, so by not stopping you are potentially avoiding the synch lag death.

You could potentially Divine Shield the shockwave, but that's obviously a bad use of Divine Shield when you can give everyone in the raid 40% damage reduction in phase 2. Lately I find this unnecessary though, and instead use my Divine Shield in phase 4 to clear out almost all of the land mines.
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Re: [Ret] Libram of Discord?

Postby Joanadark » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:51 am

In my opinion, it's not feasible either. He's talking about Crusader strike (GCD), turn around and consecrate (GCD), judge. That gives you roughly 1 second to move 5 yards to out of shockwave range where RNG and synch lag can randomly say "you died despite what you thought."


Youre overestimating the Shock Blast radius. Its actually extremely small, and one of the first things we did to improve our DPS in phase 1 was to have the melee intimately learn the size of that radius.
Remember the 10-yard range of judgement, and its lack of a directional prerequisite. Your wording implies it to be a melee ability, and it isnt. 10-yards is almost all the way out of the Shock Blast radius, and is very easy to time during the two GCDs of movement outward.
Maybe your server experiences greater server lag isssues, but I'm fortunate enough to be on a very responsive server and get very low ms, allowing me to pull off some stunts that I wouldn't be able to if I had to play based on lag-compensation. The point about lag-compensation is well taken though, as it is a very common factor, and a big part of good play is being able to anticipate it and be effective despite it.
Straphing out for the extra melee swing is also a good practice, but I've found it depends greatly on the available paths outward and therefore on mine and fire location. Ideally, you'd want to straph out in the same direction as the tank to minimize return travel time.

Obviously the example I gave is a best-case scenario. In normal circumstances, at least one or two of the abilities mentioned will be cooling down still when you reach the point of their ideal placement. There is always a little dead space in FCFS rotation anyway. This gap or two in the ideal ability chaining for a run out is what compensates for the points you were making.

The example was merely intended as a demonstration of how the characteristics of the different abilities, such as static placement (using consecrate when you're away from the boss cause you just ran out does no good, so use it before you have to run out even if that means delaying a superior ranged ability), or range (you can judge on the way out and divine storm on the way in from the half-way point), quite frequently means that the effective use of your abilities will vary from strict FCFS.
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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Lore » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:23 am

Worth noting that Divine Storm is still a better use of your GCD than Consecration in that situation. Just because it does its damage over time doesn't somehow make it do more damage when you move away from it.
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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Elsie » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:59 am

Youre overestimating the Shock Blast radius. Its actually extremely small, and one of the first things we did to improve our DPS in phase 1 was to have the melee intimately learn the size of that radius.

I overestimate nothing. It's 15 yards. My wording does not imply it to be a melee ability, either.

That's a good addition though, that going in the general direction as the tank is preferential.
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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Joanadark » Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:29 pm

I'm tempted to go time the precise length of time required to run 15 yards with Pursuit of Justice.
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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Joanadark » Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:43 pm

Worth noting that Divine Storm is still a better use of your GCD than Consecration in that situation. Just because it does its damage over time doesn't somehow make it do more damage when you move away from it.


A consecrate placed away from the target because you delayed it does zero damage however.
You are completely correct about DS doing superior damage, but touching back on the topic of lag compensation there is something I've learned about the use of Consecrate and Divine Storm while moving. Latency affects the two abilities in different ways. When running, consecrate tends to lag and drop very slightly behind your actual position when you cast it, meaning it is most effective used to toss behind you when running AWAY from a target so as to not miss completely as can frequently happen when casting it while running inward at the same distance from the target.
Divine Storm is the reverse, it tends to lag ahead of you, but not hit targets behind you from as far a range, and is thus best used when running TOWARDS a target.

All this is very subjective of course, and doesnt mean anything unless applied properly. For all the accusations Ret DPS gets of being simplistic and easy, I find it by far one of the most difficult to even describe to a new player, as it is composed of many snap decisions and judgement calls based on intimate knowledge of your mechanics. I've never understood why Ret gets such a hard time when I've played a mage (1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, hot streak proc! 3, 2, 2...), rogue (SnD, 5-point Rupture, Evisc), and even the allegedly more difficult classes like feral druid (keep 5 different self-buff and target-debuff effects active at constant up-time) or Shadow Priest (download mod. Press button it tells you to press. Profit.) and nothing really strikes me personally as being as intelligence and snap-judgement call based as the ret rotation. Its the reason I play a ret paladin. I wouldn't enjoy a simplistic class.
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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Kelaan » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:47 pm

I know I have a long way to go on mastering this. I thought I was doing a good FCFS execution, and then saw that another ret paladin in our Hodir kill had about 2x the damage I did. :-( I think I need the muscle memory to be better.
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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Dorvan » Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:10 pm

Kelaan wrote:I know I have a long way to go on mastering this. I thought I was doing a good FCFS execution, and then saw that another ret paladin in our Hodir kill had about 2x the damage I did. :-( I think I need the muscle memory to be better.


The difference between a well executed and a poorly executed FCFS system wouldn't explain nearly that much variation in damage done. Unless you're spending a lot of time standing there pressing nothing at all, something else is going wrong. I don't remember whether the shaman in that fight can buff melee as well as casters, but if so a difference in crit buff time could make a big difference in overall damage down on Hodir. Just general time on target could be a factor as well. I'd have to see logs to say much more.
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