[Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

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[Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:35 pm

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/5/17631617 ... hange.html

Bornakk wrote:We are in the process of completing a hotfix that could go live as early as this afternoon that will make the Paladin talent Vindication no longer reduce Intelligence or Stamina from the target it is applied to. The talent will continue to reduce Agility, Spirit, and Strength as it currently does. We felt this change will help balance the ability out, especially in the lower arena brackets where they are very prominent, while not being a negative impact on a Retribution Paladin’s PvE dps.

Once this hotfix is live, the tooltip will be incorrect until we can update it in the next content patch.
Bummer :(
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Baelor » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:37 pm

Fridmarr wrote:http://blue.mmo-champion.com/5/17631617432-vindication-talent-change.html

Bornakk wrote:We are in the process of completing a hotfix that could go live as early as this afternoon that will make the Paladin talent Vindication no longer reduce Intelligence or Stamina from the target it is applied to. The talent will continue to reduce Agility, Spirit, and Strength as it currently does. We felt this change will help balance the ability out, especially in the lower arena brackets where they are very prominent, while not being a negative impact on a Retribution Paladin’s PvE dps.

Once this hotfix is live, the tooltip will be incorrect until we can update it in the next content patch.
Bummer :(

Well that sucks. I took it in my PvP build solely because it reduced stamina. Now it's useless against casters, since most of 'em aren't stacking spirit for PvP purposes to my knowledge.
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Selgar » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:40 pm

Frees up 3 talent points though..
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:42 pm

That wording from Bornakk comes off as pretty funny with his reference to the prominent number of ret pallys in the "lower" brackets driving this. lol
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby honorshammer » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:58 pm

My main concern is they are releasing these nerfs while still in the process of redesigning Ret's combat system. It is my hope that Ret will be balanced when the combat system is redesigned to lower it's burst. They may 'forget' some of these nerfs and not correct them when the new combat system is put in place.
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Baelor » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:07 pm

Selgar wrote:Frees up 3 talent points though..

I'm pretty sure Vindication is a 2 point talent. Where's the 3rd point being taken from?
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Gamingdevil » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:08 pm

Honorshammer wrote:My main concern is they are releasing these nerfs while still in the process of redesigning Ret's combat system. It is my hope that Ret will be balanced when the combat system is redesigned to lower it's burst. They may 'forget' some of these nerfs and not correct them when the new combat system is put in place.


Like they usually do. Look at Divine Shield and Avenging Wrath. DS still has that outragous drawback even though you can't use AW anymore while in it.
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Selgar » Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:14 pm

Baelor wrote:
Selgar wrote:Frees up 3 talent points though..

I'm pretty sure Vindication is a 2 point talent. Where's the 3rd point being taken from?


My bad 2 points heh
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Elsie » Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:09 pm

I don't even plan to spec into it anymore.
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Baelor » Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:41 pm

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZiGzhrZ ... bsz:0hj0mV
My new PvP spec sans Vindication. Sons of bitches keep taking away the good talents, pretty soon I'm going to be investing in filler talents in my PvP spec.
And before you ask, the 1 point in Eye for an Eye is for totem kickback. And because I've got no where better to put it, really.
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Elsie » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:13 pm

Baelor wrote:http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZiGzhrZVfbxdIuGdIbsz:0hj0mV
My new PvP spec sans Vindication. Sons of bitches keep taking away the good talents, pretty soon I'm going to be investing in filler talents in my PvP spec.
And before you ask, the 1 point in Eye for an Eye is for totem kickback. And because I've got no where better to put it, really.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZVGzmRZ ... bsu:0sA0mV

Your build isn't going to be competitive in 2v2. Simply put, the only way to recover the loss of vindication is more damage. Your only choice now is one that picks up Righteous vengeance.

There's a high chance I'm just going to retire my paladin in the coming week. I simply have lost the urge to play him anymore with continuous hotfix nerfed (especially since I lost 100 points today since this change wasn't given with any notification). I recommend anyone who really cares about arena to reroll priest or druid for healing (druids are OP right now) and rogue or DK for dps (DK being the current best). Mage is also fairly safe.

I'm sorry to all who were relying on me to publish pvp guide. With blizzard's constant changes, raids, and real life I haven't felt anything I've written to be reliable or well tested. I wish I could offer words of encouragement, but vindication was a pivotal talent. Ret will still win games, but it is no where near as solid as other classes and the target of many knee-jerk nerfs.

edit: They nerfed Hammer of Justice a bit too.
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Joanadark » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:57 pm

Rets are dead as a competative 2v2 comp class unless they give something else to pressure a healer or increase damage.

Vindication was our answer to MS.
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Joanadark » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:19 pm

Increasingly it felt like someone playing against a Ret-Pally really only had 60% of their health bar because Vindication took away 20% from the start and then Hammer of Wrath kicked in when they had 20% left. This change was something we could confidently hotfix and would have a minimal to no impact on the PvE side of things.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

WOW.
I can't even begin to fathom how flawed this statement is on multiple levels.

1) Stamina=/=total HP
2) Vindication gets applied after the damage of an initial attack is already dealt, so doesn't contribute any reduction in the targets total HP at all unless you somehow hit for less than it would reduce.
3) Vindication actually REDUCES the Hammer of Wrath window to 14% instead of 20%, making it harder to hammer of wrath.
4) Its cleansible.

I'm frankly amazing that they are making knee-jerk hotfixes on an ability that has existed since the Paladin Class review patch in VANILLA WOW and is already useless in PvE based on the flawed assumption that "LOL everyone facing rets has 60% HP".
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby ulushnar » Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:37 am

Between this and the E4AE change, the PVE and PVP iterations of my ret spec just moved closer together. Thanks for that Blizz!

It's not the nerf itself that bothers me, it's the fact it's another nerf this season/patch with nothing given back to show for it.
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:28 am

I just noticed there was another tweak that got released...

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/23/1763161 ... -6409.html

Bornakk wrote:When immune to the stun of following abilities, Maim, Bash, and Hammer of Justice will no longer cause player spells to be interrupted but they will still interrupt NPCs.

This one seems extremely minor, though admittedly, I've done very little PVP in wrath.
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