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[Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby fafhrd » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:25 pm

I can't imagine how you could possibly have been rage starved with pre-nerf titan's grip :o
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Chronotriggerjm » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:40 am

Sure slam may not be all that much fun. But arms definitely has more of those "oh shit!" moments like I mentioned :P There is just something about sudden death proccing when you have 100 rage that's just full of win. Let's not even forget how awesome blade storm is~ Fury is such a bore. It's just not a very technical spec, your very limited on what you can do. I feel that arms keeps you in the game a bit better.
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby fafhrd » Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:45 pm

Every time I bladestormed I thought "damn these whirlwinds would hit so much harder if they were fury whirlwinds" :P

Anyway, enough "my alt's spec is better than your alt's spec", people appear to like and level with both fine.

What's the difference between SD at 100 rage and otherwise though? It does the same damage at 100 as it does at 30 doesn't it?
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Bundy » Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:11 am

What's the difference between SD at 100 rage and otherwise though? It does the same damage at 100 as it does at 30 doesn't it?


Good god no! Execute does more damage with the more rage you have. Its like 2k base damage and 30 more damage for each point of rage you have. So its a huge difference especialy when it crits.

I started out as Arms and it was nice, then I switched to Fury to try it out. It is very boring but effective for soloing stuff. With the bloodthirst glyph you never have to stop killing because your a self healing machine. But I grew tired of it within a week.

So Just last night a went back to Arms and I can say that I appreciate it alot more now. I dont have a dps meter so I dont have exact numbers, but many many times I would see a total of 3 hits land within a 1 sec period all for 3k +. I have never used Slam before because the cast time seems ridiculous for a warrior. Im gonna see if I cant impliment it somehow though, afterall, my 2pc bonus increases its damage by 10%. But I went 54/9/8 and glyphed with mortal strike, cleave, heroic strike. So my heroic strikes crit chance is like 45% before buffs and I actualy gain rage when it crits.

Arms is alot funner than Fury, theres no question about that. It does also appear to me that its better dps too. the only downfall is when soloing you will need to stop and heal up every once and a while, still not often though.
Plus with Arms you can stack more Crit and AP/Str because you dont have to worry about hit so much.
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby fafhrd » Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:46 am

Bundy wrote:
What's the difference between SD at 100 rage and otherwise though? It does the same damage at 100 as it does at 30 doesn't it?


Good god no! Execute does more damage with the more rage you have. Its like 2k base damage and 30 more damage for each point of rage you have. So its a huge difference especialy when it crits.


Executes do more damage the more rage you have yes. Sudden Death executes on the other hand were capped at using a max of 30 rage ages ago, I don't think they've changed it back.

Also, I can't say I'm up on the latest news about warriors, but my understanding is that fury warriors don't care about hit any more than arms - they can use a lot more hit without completely wasting it, but they still only want 8% to cap their specials (in arms' case this amount also caps their whites), after which hit becomes a second tier stat - you stack str or arp and hope to get crit on the pieces you use to do so, while capping expertise (anecdotally, my mediocre-geared fury warrior has hit and haste each worth around 55% per point of a point of strength, while crit is worth 91% and arp around 77% - so I'm still stacking str. Better geared fury (and arms) warriors have arp above 100% of strength, so they're stacking arp).

I think arms usually glyphs execution (because of all the SD execute damage) and rending (to save the gcds from having to rend a lot less) instead of HS and cleave, since you supposedly don't gain much from HS as arms given what you could do with the rage you'd have generated if you hadn't HS'd that mainhand - I dunno though, fury you glyph HS since you're HS continuously most fights anyway.
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Bundy » Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:39 am

Executes do more damage the more rage you have yes. Sudden Death executes on the other hand were capped at using a max of 30 rage ages ago, I don't think they've changed it back.


Ok well SD's tooltip says "Lets you use EXECUTE reguardless of targets health" so where at all does it say it caps at 30 rage?
It says it lets you keep 10 rage afterwards, but nothing about a cap. If this is true that is just homosexual. And im fairly certain ive used it with full rage and ended up with next to none, so if it uses all your rage but only hits as if you had 30, im gonna be super pissed.

I think arms usually glyphs execution (because of all the SD execute damage) and rending (to save the gcds from having to rend a lot less) instead of HS and cleave, since you supposedly don't gain much from HS as arms given what you could do with the rage you'd have generated if you hadn't HS'd that mainhand - I dunno though, fury you glyph HS since you're HS continuously most fights anyway.


I dont follow any "cookie cutter" spec or glyphs, I go with my gut. With that being said, I glyph mortal strike, heroic strike, and cleave. Thinking about it I dont cleave that much so I might change that to execute. But the heroic strike is good. if you spend 8 points in prot for the 15% crit, that should bring your heroic strike crit to at least 45% unbuffed, and when it crits its basicaly free. That seems pretty good to me, being able to damn near spam heroic strike with most of em being crits.
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Epimer » Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:02 am

Bundy wrote:Ok well SD's tooltip says "Lets you use EXECUTE reguardless of targets health" so where at all does it say it caps at 30 rage?


The bit where it says "This Execute only uses up to 30 total rage."
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Bundy » Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:25 am

I will look for that when I get home. I dont see how I could have overlooked that though. If thats the case im gonna have to respec a little.
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby fafhrd » Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:44 am

Well by respec, if you're thinking of speccing out of SD, you probably don't want to - it's still a huge chunk of arms dps and if you're going to drop points in it you may as well not be arms.

The thing about heroic strike as arms isn't the 12 rage cost of the heroic strike (which as you say is almost free with the glyph), it's the cost of the white swing you would have generated a huge amount of rage from on your next swing if you hadn't replaced it with a heroic strike - if you already have so much rage than you're not endangering your next MS/SD/OP/Rend/Slam by forfeiting rage to heroic strike, you probable don't care about getting 10 rage back from the HS either. Fury uses it more liberally since even at 100% hs usage their offhand is still free to generate rage, and replacing the MH swing with an HS gets around the DW hit penalty too (in addition to the bit of extra damage and the glance removal, which are all arms gets out of it).
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Bundy » Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:17 pm

Ya apparently im blind, or I just just plain forgot. Anyways I was just gonna take 1 point out of SD to put in slam. When I speced, I had one point left with no where to really put it. I ended up putting it in Booming Voice. If I take the one from there and the one from SD, I can put them both in Imp Slam and actualy use Slam. Because right now I do not use it at all.
Something about a casting bar on a warrior is just wrong, but 0.5 secs is barely noticable.

Right now im 54/9/8 and im gonna just go 55/8/8

You do make some good points though, ill just have to practice with it to see how rage is with different variations of HS use. I think 1 out of 3 should be good.
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Nemuria » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:33 am

Hello

use HS only if you have enough rage for the next attacks. Instert a Slam when you don't have anything up. That's why the cast time reduction can be useful. Both are yellow atttacks but Heroic replaces you white attacks. There are fights when you are at 50+ rage because of AoE or soloing. Here you can use HS or Cleave at heart.
I am using a 54/17 classic execute build with Sudden Death: it procs in conjunction of Fulgurance Taste of Blood. You should be most of the time under MS - Fulgurance - Execute.

I read up stuff beforehand but it's only by playing regularly I came naturally to this specs. There are diffent variation depending on your playstyle. I think a Cleave build is more useful than HS. Our weakness is mainly on AoE phase rather than single target dmg (I hate small critters).

Also I can see a difference in dPS with armor reduction, especially on fulgurance. I always try to apply sunder when soloing or with a pallytank
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Jedah » Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:49 am

I hate to be blunt but the amount of fail in this thread is amazing considering the usual quality of this site.

Here's some simple facts to try to address some of the incorrect points made thus far:

Glyph Rend, Mortal Strike, and Execution, period. Theorycraft is all well and good, but any seriously experienced DPS warrior will tell you that heroic strike is never (more accurately, rarely) used as arms. Cleave is situational but 99% of the time will do nothing but pad your DPS on non-essential crap, while lowering your actual DPS on the target that matters.

Sudden Death execute rage spent is capped at 30, per tooltip - this was changed several patches ago.

54/17/0 is the best DPS build, 55/8/8 is not. I tested it relentlessly months ago before I saw anybody else even consider it, it just doesn't work.

If you're running a Prioritization cycle, you should be doing SD > MS > OP > Slam.
If you're running the "rotation" cycle, you should be doing MS, OP, filler, filler. Where the filler portion is SD > Slam.

Rend should be refreshed immediately after the last tick (i.e. AFTER it falls off), do not clip it.

It is always better DPS to be using something on every GCD than to have dead time waiting for a higher priority ability to come off cooldown.

The key to warrior dps is Armor Penetration. Your DPS will never be competitive without stacking it. The caveat to this point is that you should still be gemming STR until you have roughly 40% unbuffed ArP from gear.

Do not gear/gear for hit over 8% total hit (including Draenei aura, percision) as fury under any circumstances.

Last point - those who say fury is "mindless" either don't know what they're talking about or they are doing it wrong. Once you get used to Arms, it becomes mind-numbingly easy, the only difficult part being proper management of slam usage in highly mobile fights. In 3.1, rage management as Fury is serious shit, and that is what makes it more difficult to execute properly than arms.

Sorry if this post is a little choppy. I'm at work & it took me like 2 hours to get this posted. Feel free to PM or ask specific questions on here if you want to know anything about DPS warriors.
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Nemuria » Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:42 am

It's right have seldom found myself using HS/Cleave on a boss. It's mainly leveling, solo and some trash.

I think I don't use slam enough. It would be interesting to know "when to use slam?". Especially not really mobile fights (when you know something will move) but during void, blizzard and random tank move.
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Jedah » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:12 am

Nemuria wrote:It's right have seldom found myself using HS/Cleave on a boss. It's mainly leveling, solo and some trash.

I think I don't use slam enough. It would be interesting to know "when to use slam?". Especially not really mobile fights (when you know something will move) but during void, blizzard and random tank move.


I will answer your question with a question - Are you using something every GCD? If you aren't, then you're not using slam enough. If you are, you *might* be using it too much. Slam is the worst choice if you have something else available, but it's the right choice if nothing else available.

The second part, about when to use slam i am not perfectly clear on where you are coming from. I am going to assume you mean "When should I use slam as anything other than the lowest priority GCD attack, considering that I know I am going to have to move in a second?"

On fights where you have random blizzard/void zones/fire popping up, such as Ponytail's Green Rune of Death on Iron Council, you really can't worry about anticipating it because it's random as to where and when it is placed. Just do your cycle as normal, if you have to cancel a slam to get out of the green stuff and not die, then do it.

On fights where you have predicted or consistent movement (Ignis comes to mind), you might find that prioritizing slam over another instant attack will net you a dps gain because you would otherwise have no attack to use while you are moving. i.e. MS just got off cooldown but at the same time you see Ignis start to cast Scorch. You know the tank is going to move in a moment, so using slam FIRST will allow you to use MS while he is being predictably kited for a moment.

This takes a lot of trial and error to start getting it consistently right, but in the end I think it's what separates a great arms warrior from an average one.
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Spectrum » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:58 am

Heroic strike does have a place with arms: When you are swimming in rage. It's the best way to rage dump when you are generating more than you can use with your other specials. I only hit it if I'm over 80 rage, and then only if that's happening consistently. Fights with lots of haste or damage buffs can really get you to this point.

As for armor pen, it's not good to stack until you have a decent amount of it. Basically, you should only weight it about as much as crit until you are at about 40% with Battle Stance and Mace Spec (if you have it, though poleaxe is better) and you have 3500+ AP. At that point you can start stacking it to good effect. It isn't always the best stat. It only passes strength once you have enough damage to benefit from the ArP.

To me, rage management isn't fun. Managing cooldowns and procs is more fun. And I find that arms still has rage management issues on many fights. For me, Arms is way more fun, so I'm sticking with it.
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