[DK/Pala] Frost Presence Nerf - Please Check My Maths?

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[DK/Pala] Frost Presence Nerf - Please Check My Maths?

Postby Mert » Wed May 27, 2009 7:55 am

A Death Knight in my guild mentioned today that in 3.1.3 the armor bonus from Frost Presence will be reduced from 80% to 60%. After some discussion, I decided to do some basic maths on the subject to work out if this was needed or if it would put Death Knights behind shield-using classes in terms of mitigation.

With raid buffs, the Death Knight says he has approximately 30k armor and I have 27k with the same buffs.

According to wowwiki, the formula for the amount of damage one can absorb based on armour is:

Absorbtion = Armor / (Armor + 400 + 85 * MobLevel)


So using those figures and assuming only white hits, he would absorb a shade over 80% from a level 83 boss and I would absorb 78.36%.

Again, according to wowwiki, the formula for the amount of damage you can take before dying (assuming only armor and HP) is:

Damage before death = player health / (1-Absorbtion)


Assuming both the Death Knight and the Paladin have exactly 40k buffed HP, this would mean the Death Knight would take 200,000 damage before dying whereas the Paladin would take 181,818.18r.

So if we assume the Paladin is at 102.4% and both the Paladin and Death Knight have exactly 52.4% avoidance then 50% of the incoming hits would be taken in full by the Death Knight and blocked by the Paladin. From my experience, when I block I usually mitigate approximately 10% of the hit, so I will make the assumption for the sake of simplicity that every hit that is not avoided will be mitigated by the Paladin by 10%.

So if the boss is doing 20k damage per white swing, it would take exactly 10 hits to kill the Death Knight. The Paladin would also be able to take 10 hits, but with 18.12k overkill if none were blocked. If the Paladin blocks every incoming hit for a 10% reduction, he would take 18k per white swing compared to the Death Knight's 20k. This would mean that the Paladin would therefore take 11 hits to kill.

This to me seems like the Paladin is already at a slight advantage over the Death Knight by being at 102.4% but a potential disadvantage without. With the 20% reduction in armor from Frost Presence, this would mean the Paladin who is at 102.4% would have a much more distinct advantage.

The thing I want to check, however, is whether my maths are correct here? I've used formulas from wowwiki which seem like they might be out of date and I'm limited in places I can check from work. My Death Knight guildie seems rather upset about the change as he is already worried that he is being out-performed by the Paladins, even without this change. So if I'm drastically wrong then please say so - this was just the initial look I've taken and I'd love to know if it was an accurate assessment of the situation. So as the thread title says, please check my maths so I can settle the discussion on my guild forums :)
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Re: [DK/Pala] Frost Presence Nerf - Please Check My Maths?

Postby Splug » Wed May 27, 2009 8:56 am

Your math looks correct, but one of your base assumptions is not. Death knights generally have more stamina than paladins in equivalent ilevel gear. The base health is higher, frost presence multiplies off health (not stamina), and in some specs the total stamina/health multiplier reaches roughly +18%. The effect of death strike also somewhat counters that of shield block. With vampiric blood active (~25% uptime), my regeneration is 12350 per death strike, and about 7.4k without the cooldown. While outright damage mitigation will always be superior to regeneration, the numbers for death knight health returns are higher than those of block, and the mechanic exhibits a not-scaled-to-boss-damage damage removal/mitigation effect.

Death knight armor is currently too high. 60% may be too low, but some quick seat-of-the-pants math last night indicated it is not. Post nerf I believe I'd still be sitting at ~26-27k unbuffed, which is still slightly higher than our equivalently geared paladin (though not the 29950 I have now, which is honestly overkill).

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Re: [DK/Pala] Frost Presence Nerf - Please Check My Maths?

Postby Levantine » Wed May 27, 2009 4:32 pm

Kek. I has moar armorz than Splug. :3

Although, I'm also a whore and am stacking it wherever possible. >_> <_< >_>

WTB Leviathan's Coil.
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Re: [DK/Pala] Frost Presence Nerf - Please Check My Maths?

Postby Elsie » Wed May 27, 2009 9:55 pm

Expanding on what Splug said, it's often "stated" that DKs currently simply have more avoidance, health, and armor. Furthermore, their mitigation cool downs scale with the boss's damage when block does not. The change may make paladins superior in terms of armor post-change, but that says nothing of the total reduction DKs get or how useful so many cool downs are. For example, they would still be amazing on General Vezax since they can use Icebound Fortitude instead of kiting every time. To make it simple, it is a problem when one tank is superior or nearly equal normally and then superior in cool downs. Having lower armor is a small price to pay considering their CD uptime.
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Re: [DK/Pala] Frost Presence Nerf - Please Check My Maths?

Postby Levantine » Wed May 27, 2009 11:01 pm

Nitpicking, but our cooldowns, individually, are weaker than a Paladins, it's just that IBF has a one minute cooldown while DP has a two minute coodldown.
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Re: [DK/Pala] Frost Presence Nerf - Please Check My Maths?

Postby mavfin » Wed May 27, 2009 11:34 pm

Levantine wrote:Nitpicking, but our cooldowns, individually, are weaker than a Paladins, it's just that IBF has a one minute cooldown while DP has a two minute coodldown.


Yeah, the issue is that you're equal-to-superior in health/armor/avoidance to the block classes, then you have two short cooldowns to chain on top of it. No, the cooldowns themselves aren't better, but, you can use them more in general. Also, the cooldowns vs magic damage are superior. It's a tough line to walk for Blizzard, to get that in balance w/o destroying the class vs the others. It's getting closer to balanced all the time.
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Re: [DK/Pala] Frost Presence Nerf - Please Check My Maths?

Postby Elsie » Wed May 27, 2009 11:54 pm

Nitpicking, but our cooldowns, individually, are weaker than a Paladins, it's just that IBF has a one minute cooldown while DP has a two minute coodldown.

Nitpicking, but paladins have 1 cool down. It's a bit unfair to compare three (or four) to one.
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Re: [DK/Pala] Frost Presence Nerf - Please Check My Maths?

Postby Fridmarr » Thu May 28, 2009 12:24 am

Levantine wrote:Nitpicking, but our cooldowns, individually, are weaker than a Paladins, it's just that IBF has a one minute cooldown while DP has a two minute coodldown.

Well you can't really separate the cooldown though it's part of the skill, and is what makes Icebound Fortitude superior.

GC kind of put it out there...
Ghostcrawler wrote:When we were doing tests with Ulduar-geared tanks, the DK took less damage than the warrior even if neither tank used any cooldowns. The DK health, armor and avoidance were all higher. Given that the DK cooldowns are superior, this seemed like a problem.
Assuming that's true, then yeah there needed to be some tweaking. I'm not so sure nerfing DKs is the correct move in this case, but it'll probably get at least some of the job done, and it's likely the easiest to contain since DKs aren't exactly hurting in arenas, the collateral damage is probably desired.
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Re: [DK/Pala] Frost Presence Nerf - Please Check My Maths?

Postby Levantine » Thu May 28, 2009 1:11 am

Elsie wrote:
Nitpicking, but our cooldowns, individually, are weaker than a Paladins, it's just that IBF has a one minute cooldown while DP has a two minute coodldown.

Nitpicking, but paladins have 1 cool down. It's a bit unfair to compare three (or four) to one.


Considering that you appear to be combining spec specific cooldowns, and then inflating their value somewhat to boot.

Then again, I shouldn't expect anything other than blatant Paladin bandwagoning. The inferiority complex you people have is stunning.
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Re: [DK/Pala] Frost Presence Nerf - Please Check My Maths?

Postby ulushnar » Thu May 28, 2009 4:20 am

Levantine wrote:Then again, I shouldn't expect anything other than blatant Paladin bandwagoning. The inferiority complex you people have is stunning.


Please, let's not have a DK vs Paladin thread, and certainly let's not flame about it. Some of us play both!
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Re: [DK/Pala] Frost Presence Nerf - Please Check My Maths?

Postby Mert » Thu May 28, 2009 6:34 am

Ulushnar wrote:
Levantine wrote:Then again, I shouldn't expect anything other than blatant Paladin bandwagoning. The inferiority complex you people have is stunning.


Please, let's not have a DK vs Paladin thread, and certainly let's not flame about it. Some of us play both!


I do and I'm the OP! I have a little baby 64 DK who's going to also be a tank when he gets to 80. I think both classes are awesome, I was just trying to understand the relative effect this change will have and whether it will make block rating more sought after again (albeit only "buffing" it by nerfing other classes).

The reason I didn't include Death Strike in the calculations is because I didn't want to also start including Judgement of Light either. While obviously Death Strike is an integral part of the DK's tanking rotation, it's quite likely that JoL will be up on a boss most of the time too and it made the math more complicated. However, if other DKs are saying that Death Strike is good enough to make block give little real advantage then fair paly.

So yes, for the record, this was never intended to be a DK vs Pally thread. I enjoy both classes and am very curious about DK tanking since I'm working on it but don't actually have one yet. So stop it :P
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Re: [DK/Pala] Frost Presence Nerf - Please Check My Maths?

Postby Rehlachs » Thu May 28, 2009 6:55 am

Mert wrote:According to wowwiki, the formula for the amount of damage one can absorb based on armour is:

Absorbtion = Armor / (Armor + 400 + 85 * MobLevel)


wowwiki titles that formula with the following
For enemies from level 1 to 59, the reduction to physical damage, as a percentage, is given by the following formula


for raidbosses it says:
%Reduction for 83 = (Armor / (Armor + 16635)) * 100


therefore, the DK's reduction will be 64.33% and yours will be 61.88% .. resulting in difference of your damage reductions of 2.45%, resulting in ~7% less damage taken by the DK due to mitigation coming from armor.
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Re: [DK/Pala] Frost Presence Nerf - Please Check My Maths?

Postby Mert » Thu May 28, 2009 8:31 am

Ah cool - thanks :)

I can't get on wowwiki from work so I was actually looking it up on my mobile phone - I guess that's how I missed the gigantic title you pointed out. Thanks again, I'll re-do the maths on it and see the difference it'd make :D
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Re: [DK/Pala] Frost Presence Nerf - Please Check My Maths?

Postby Splug » Thu May 28, 2009 9:18 am

Judgement of Light is a globally accessable debuff though. Unless a raid has no paladin at all, then it's a fairly safe assumption that a holy or retribution paladin (or another tank even) will be applying it. Death strike is self-only, as are blocked attacks. Though there are two major problems with the model: the first is that frost or unholy specs will have to make damage/threat sacrifices to tap into death strike as a mitigative tool, making it somewhat less accessable to them. Secondly, it's difficult to time the rotation around when damage is taken without (again) taking a threat hit due to the delayed swings.

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Re: [DK/Pala] Frost Presence Nerf - Please Check My Maths?

Postby Fridmarr » Thu May 28, 2009 11:12 pm

Levantine wrote:
Elsie wrote:
Nitpicking, but our cooldowns, individually, are weaker than a Paladins, it's just that IBF has a one minute cooldown while DP has a two minute coodldown.

Nitpicking, but paladins have 1 cool down. It's a bit unfair to compare three (or four) to one.


Considering that you appear to be combining spec specific cooldowns, and then inflating their value somewhat to boot.

Then again, I shouldn't expect anything other than blatant Paladin bandwagoning. The inferiority complex you people have is stunning.

Considering you discount the significant difference in cooldown time, this is quite the pot kettle post, on every level. Also, it's called being a homer, if we were bandwagoning we'd be too busy leveling DKs to post.

In any event, check the gross generalizations at the door.
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