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GC comments on itemization

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GC comments on itemization

Postby majiben » Fri May 22, 2009 4:11 am

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/1722309 ... -devs.html

Some scary stuff in here. One of the scariest to me is his outright dismissal of putting agility on plate gear.
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Re: GC comments on itemization

Postby ulushnar » Fri May 22, 2009 4:22 am

I wouldn't go as far as to say "scary", but definately "embattled". Noticed he sidestepped the Spell Plate issue.
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Re: GC comments on itemization

Postby majiben » Fri May 22, 2009 4:31 am

It's scary to be told that there's a viable solution for making plate gear more attractive than leather but dismissed due it not being cool? not jiving well with karma? Something? There wasn't a valid reason for not adding agility or AP to plate gear, thereby making their lives so much harder and competition so much stronger for leather pieces.

Also they made a complete straw-man argument about people not finding upgrades in ulduar. People aren't refusing to put on the gear because it's not the new BiS, they're doing it because it's a sidegrade at best and a downgrade at worst. That is most certainly the case with holy paladins.
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Re: GC comments on itemization

Postby ulushnar » Fri May 22, 2009 4:35 am

I do have to admit, I've watched holydins turn up their noses at some of the Ulduar10 pieces. I'll also admit I don't get his reasoning about Agility.

I don't play around much with DPS theorycraft, but why do people want AP on Plate? Since it seems to be budgetted on a 2:1 ratio with Strength, strength would seem to be the better option, since it scales with talents and Kings.
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Re: GC comments on itemization

Postby majiben » Fri May 22, 2009 4:42 am

Well itemization isn't as clear cut as we usually use. There's diminishing returns for stats on gear. The less diverse the stats on a piece of gear, the higher the diminishing returns. So you could get a piece of gear with 80 str and no AP or you could get one with 60 str and 60 AP. It's present in all gear. A really easy example is http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44323 and http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37220. Thanks to the diversity you get what is essentially a larger budget. Both trinkets are the same ilvl but because one branches out from stamina, you get more "simple" ipoints from it.
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Re: GC comments on itemization

Postby hoho » Fri May 22, 2009 4:46 am

As as shadowpriest I'd love to get my tier with zero spirit, zero haste, zero stamina and half the intellect with all the leftover itempoints allocated to only to spellpower/crit. That would pretty much be the ideal itemization for me. For my tankadin I'd like to get a choice of, say, pants with 500 stam or 20% avoidance. Would be nice but again won't happen.

To me his reasoning of not putting agi and str on plate reads as he doesn't want to have too much DPS stats on gear or they would need to start nerfing people. The diminishing returns on stacking stats is one way of limiting scenarios where people would pick up stuff similar to frozen shadowweave and use them forever.

Itemization will surely get better in later tiers. Difference between how well they did stuff dropping from BT and SWP is pretty huge. I'm quite sure it will happen again in later tiers.
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Re: GC comments on itemization

Postby majiben » Fri May 22, 2009 4:55 am

Plate dps itemization really can't get better though. The 4 main dps stats are Str, hit, exp, crit. Everything else plains in comparison. Well I suppose that's not quite true, AP and agility are decent for plate dps but if we are to believe GC we won't ever see them on plate.

Hit and expertise have caps, and the hit cap is easy to reach now, a nuisance some might say, and the expertise cap is also attainable with a little effort currently. What is left for plate dps gear is either subpar stats that are shadows of the main four or heavy stacking of str and crit, leading us very far down their roads of heavy diminishing returns.


As for holy, GC talking about illumination nerfs makes me nervous for this reason: Holy still won't want MP5, they'll still want int. Yes int is still better for them when it comes to regen than mp5 plus it still has secondary benefits. And they are also getting close to their glass ceiling, reaching the haste soft cap already (1 second GCD).
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Re: GC comments on itemization

Postby honorshammer » Fri May 22, 2009 7:37 am

Majiben wrote:Plate dps itemization really can't get better though. The 4 main dps stats are Str, hit, exp, crit. Everything else plains in comparison. Well I suppose that's not quite true, AP and agility are decent for plate dps but if we are to believe GC we won't ever see them on plate.

Hit and expertise have caps, and the hit cap is easy to reach now, a nuisance some might say, and the expertise cap is also attainable with a little effort currently. What is left for plate dps gear is either subpar stats that are shadows of the main four or heavy stacking of str and crit, leading us very far down their roads of heavy diminishing returns.


As for holy, GC talking about illumination nerfs makes me nervous for this reason: Holy still won't want MP5, they'll still want int. Yes int is still better for them when it comes to regen than mp5 plus it still has secondary benefits. And they are also getting close to their glass ceiling, reaching the haste soft cap already (1 second GCD).


Armor Pen is a pretty good stat, at least for Warriors and probably Rogues. Paladins don't get much from it.
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Re: GC comments on itemization

Postby Levantine » Fri May 22, 2009 8:51 am

ArP is good for Blood Death Knights as well. Haste is decent for Unholy. Frost is kinda... well... we like Strength.
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Re: GC comments on itemization

Postby Isetnefret » Fri May 22, 2009 9:24 am

It almost seems like tanking plate is easier to itemize because there are more choices of useful stats.

We could take def rating, dodge, parry, block, block value, hit, exp, str, stam, armor, bonus armor, even agi.

Str seems to be universally yummy for plate dps....other stats....more or less so.

Crit is probably good for some.

Haste vs. armor pen seems to vary based on spec/class?
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Re: GC comments on itemization

Postby Invisusira » Fri May 22, 2009 10:59 am

GC and a couple trolls sum it up nicely if you actually scroll down.

Honestly, I'm bewildered at why this is a problem? Did you all just start playing WoW? Did you all just start raiding?

Anyone who actually worked their way through T4, then T5, then into T6 in TBC wouldn't be the least bit surprised at current item progression, because it's no different.

Do you know how many Rogues / Hunters in T5/T6 gear were still busy running Gruuls Lair to get the Dragonspine that never dropped / they lost the bid/roll on? Do you know how many Hunters in SSC/TK were still running Kara in hopes of Legacy, or the bow off Prince? There were Feral Druid Tanks still running SSC in hopes of getting the trash staff to drop for them, even if they were already into T6.

Blizzard already stated they don't want all Tier 8 items to be Tier 7 items + 2% more for each stat. That's just plain boring. What they want is for you to decide on whether trading in Crit for Armor Pen is worth it to you. Is giving up Spellpower for more Haste and Crit the right way to go for your spec/roll?

By and large all pieces are upgrades in one way or another.

Plate DPS pieces have more ST on them then Tier 7 pieces
Caster/Healing pieces have more Spellpower.

Its the secondary stats like Hit, Crit, ArP, Expertise, Haste and Mp5 that change.

If you walk into T9 with many pieces from T7, that is 'working as intended', because I bet most of those T7 pieces were 226 iLV items off Kelthuzad, Malygos or Sarth Hard Modes.

Tier 9 (assuming it will be the final tier for WoTLK) is where the REAL endgame begins, and where terms like Best in Slot actually apply. I seriously doubt anyone with penetration into Tier 9 will be rocking their cloak off Kelthuzad by choice.

T8, just like T5, is a bridge in gear progression. Outside of Tier and certain trinkets, T5 was very much a "sidegrade" for many classes/specs, and Tier 8 is no different.

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Re: GC comments on itemization

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri May 22, 2009 11:01 am

There was a more useful post on the Agi-on-Plate subject last week which kind of gives his thinking on it:
The "primary" stats on dps plate are Str and Stam. The primary stats on dps leather are AP, Agi and Stam.

The reason for this is because putting Str and AP on plate feels goofy -- they are virtually the same stat for plate-wearers. Putting Str, Agi and AP on plate feels bad because Agi does so little for plate-wearers.

A long-term solution is probably something more like itemizing leather with just Agi and Stam, but making sure leather-wearers get enough out of Agi that losing the AP isn't a nerf. The alternative is to make Agi a good state for plate-wearers. We traditionally haven't done that because plate-wearers "feel" like they should be strong, not agile. But that feel may have to lose to making the plate v. leater disparity itself feel better in the long run.

Again, long-term. We're not going to hotfix thousands of items.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/1722304 ... armor.html
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Re: GC comments on itemization

Postby Isetnefret » Fri May 22, 2009 11:38 am

There are some fantastic polearms with str on them, but I'd like to see a few more personally.

I don't want to use an axe as a paladin. Swords are fine, maces are fine, polearms are fine.

I'll use an axe if it has the best stats, but I'll frowny face while I do it. :x
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Re: GC comments on itemization

Postby Fedaykin98 » Fri May 22, 2009 1:07 pm

As axes are to you, polearms are to me. I'm using Cryptfiend's Bite and I hates it. It looks very goofy on my (human) back, too - the blade is sort of centered in the small of my back, and the handle is shooting upward into the air (to infinity - and beyond!) about two or three feet above my head. It looks ridiculous.

Demise looked super good, but I can't use a Naxx10 weapon forever. I'm glad there are better options in Ulduar. If a polearm drops, I'm passing.
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Re: GC comments on itemization

Postby Fridmarr » Fri May 22, 2009 1:16 pm

I remember when I was leveling wearing all that "of the tiger" stuff. Nothing but Agi and Str. I would wreck melee classes because I ended up with a bunch of dodge and of course no one had access to countering stats.
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