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PVP retri - help needed inside

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: PVP retri - help needed inside

Postby Angelarc6570 » Mon May 18, 2009 1:44 pm

Really, just use whats most comfortable to you, I use my Function keys for my focus/FoL and only use Shift+B for my Battlemasters Trinket, seems to work for me. Takes a few days of playing to find what works for you. :D

*EDIT* Incomplete sentence was incomplete :o /
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Re: PVP retri - help needed inside

Postby bub64882 » Tue May 19, 2009 11:18 am

Elsie wrote:Judgment of Justice on rogues and druids. Everything else is case by case between justice and light.

Justice for Shammies too?

I use justice too much...need to shift to wisdom or glyph Martyr, cause mana can be a problem for me.

Also, last week we seemed to get into some very long, boring 10 minute+ matches...Outlasting isn't really an issue if they don't have crazy burst gear, but it is SO BORING/FRUSTRATING. I'm looking for tips on ending some of the stalemate matches. My thoughts so far are:

1. Get OOC and equip PVE gear for better burst.
2. Coordinate CC and healer going offensive better
3. ???
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Re: PVP retri - help needed inside

Postby Angelarc6570 » Tue May 19, 2009 12:47 pm

bub64882 wrote:
Elsie wrote:Judgment of Justice on rogues and druids. Everything else is case by case between justice and light.

Justice for Shammies too?

I use justice too much...need to shift to wisdom or glyph Martyr, cause mana can be a problem for me.

Also, last week we seemed to get into some very long, boring 10 minute+ matches...Outlasting isn't really an issue if they don't have crazy burst gear, but it is SO BORING/FRUSTRATING. I'm looking for tips on ending some of the stalemate matches. My thoughts so far are:

1. Get OOC and equip PVE gear for better burst.
2. Coordinate CC and healer going offensive better
3. ???


If the Shaman is slippery like that, then yeah, Justice is the Judgement of choice on him. I, like you, almost always use justice to make things easier. But, after like 3 games of sitting OOM in a row, for a good 45 seconds while waiting on DP to come back up made me switch to the Martyr glyph.

I personally also relish in the long mana battles that happen in 2's, makes me love arenas all the more :) But, yeah, if you want to take people down a lot quicker, switching to mostly pve gear will shorten the games by a lot, but it may be for the worse.
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Re: PVP retri - help needed inside

Postby Elsie » Wed May 20, 2009 2:50 am

Justice for Shammies too?

I use justice too much...need to shift to wisdom or glyph Martyr, cause mana can be a problem for me.

Also, last week we seemed to get into some very long, boring 10 minute+ matches...Outlasting isn't really an issue if they don't have crazy burst gear, but it is SO BORING/FRUSTRATING. I'm looking for tips on ending some of the stalemate matches. My thoughts so far are:

1. Get OOC and equip PVE gear for better burst.
2. Coordinate CC and healer going offensive better
3. ???

You need to use your offensive abilities smarter. In general, you should only oom by healing a massive amount or using judgment carelessly. If you are fighting a paladin, mage, and/or priest you must be very aware of their damage shields and remove them with crusader strike before Judgment or by swapping targets. If you're healing a lot, there's not much you can do except try to judge light between heals.

There's no real need for 10 minute fights if you're running your set up right. Double DPS is going to be fast, 3min is generally tops before the fight is basically won or lost. As healer/ret, your problem is mostly going to be coordinating your CC and the healer going offensive. Many healers simply aren't aware of their burst capability, offensive spell orders, and proper CC rotations. For example, Priests love to mana burn instead of holy fire, and they generally do not know how to properly chain fear with hammer of justice and repentance. Priests also sometimes are unaware of another priest's fear ward or do not get 5% hit. Druids, by the same token, often don't cyclone swap efficiently, keep Faerie Fire up, and other things that generally involve leaving tree form. I also see some druids making the fatal mistake of staying stealthed against a rogue.

The biggest thing in arena is chaining CC. Even a trinket simply will not prevent a good team from locking down an opposing team member if they are coordinated. However, all this means nothing if you cannot kill the target or make them use crucial defense CDs in the process. A ret paladin generally will not kill a target in plate or pre-hotted by himself. In fact, most classes generally cannot. This is entire focal point of arena - your partner is generating enough CC or utility to make up for when you can't or when you need it.
If the Shaman is slippery like that, then yeah, Justice is the Judgement of choice on him. I, like you, almost always use justice to make things easier. But, after like 3 games of sitting OOM in a row, for a good 45 seconds while waiting on DP to come back up made me switch to the Martyr glyph.

I generally have a teammate to slow the shaman, but if I'm bursting a shaman I'm also generally stunning him and if he's alive after a stun and silence (Blood Elf) then I will either stomp a totem or two or punish him by swapping very quickly. This usually means he has Earth Shield on himself, not his teammate. If he gets away, then either my teammate or myself can put some CC and/or hurt on him. For example, with my priest he would wand grounding totem before my stun, then if he used his trinket and got away he can be mana burned (out in the open), repentanced, mana burned (breaks repentance) or holy fire the new target, and then immediately feared. Since he used his trinket this amounts to 12 seconds of CC he simply can't do anything about and his teammate either HAS to use a defensive CD like Divine Shield, Unbreakable Armor, etc or somehow remove the CC on the shaman - though the shaman has judgment debuff and vindication to "protect" the repentance/fear from being dispelled a bit.
-Obviously this is an ideal example and arena is rarely ideal. There's also extra secrets to beating down DKs beyond this.
-Obviously, if you don't have the right stuff up and he won't Earth Shield himself, you have to punish him for not doing so. Hence, Light/Judgment is a situational call here.

I think many people undervalue judgment of light. While my gear is fairly good, I can heal anything from 550-1000 damage when it works depending on procs and CDs. It also procs off specials and spells. If you're running healer/ret, this means your healer is saved from potentially thousands of damage on you which potentially allow him to help you burst during a CC instead of making up for lost damage. It also mitigates the severe downside of Seal of Blood, which has done more damage to me than some opponents have.


For those asking about macros for offensive/defensive utility, I 'cheat' a little and use Gladius for my offensive cc. With Gladius, I bind left-click to Repentance and right-click to Hammer of Justice. Without this, you're going to take a long time setting up your focus and focus-cc macros (and risk having to change focus constantly). For defense, in 2v2 and 3v3 I simply set up macros such as /cast [target=name] Hand of Protection. Defensive CDs are weaker than offensive since the effect you're helping with is already applied and the opponent is gaining the advantage the effect offers. Anything that makes you slower in applying your defense utility directly translates into more effectiveness for the opponent. Macroing in your teammates' name, while tedious, is simply faster to the alternative mouseover macro and focus doesn't work for this in 3v3 (since, yknow, you have 1 focus and 2 teammates). I set up a macro like this for bop, hand of sacrifice, sacred shield, and hand of freedom.

I currently do 2v2 with a rogue, and he has two macros made specifically for me. One cancels bop and vanishes, and the other throws cloak of shadows between the two.
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Re: PVP retri - help needed inside

Postby bub64882 » Wed May 20, 2009 8:50 am

Elsie wrote:You need to use your offensive abilities smarter. In general, you should only oom by healing a massive amount or using judgment carelessly.

I think it's the latter. I am used to judging on cooldown, from 96969 practice. I will try saving it for burst.

Elsie wrote:There's no real need for 10 minute fights if you're running your set up right. Double DPS is going to be fast
Yeah, double DPS isn't an issue. I don't see many or those matchups though. Wish there were more. :)
Elsie wrote: As healer/ret, your problem is mostly going to be coordinating your CC and the healer going offensive. Many healers simply aren't aware of their burst capability, offensive spell orders, and proper CC rotations. For example, Priests love to mana burn instead of holy fire, and they generally do not know how to properly chain fear with hammer of justice and repentance. Priests also sometimes are unaware of another priest's fear ward or do not get 5% hit. Druids, by the same token, often don't cyclone swap efficiently, keep Faerie Fire up, and other things that generally involve leaving tree form. I also see some druids making the fatal mistake of staying stealthed against a rogue.
This seems to be our issue. We're working on it. :)

Elsie wrote:I think many people undervalue judgment of light. While my gear is fairly good, I can heal anything from 550-1000 damage when it works depending on procs and CDs. It also procs off specials and spells. If you're running healer/ret, this means your healer is saved from potentially thousands of damage on you which potentially allow him to help you burst during a CC instead of making up for lost damage. It also mitigates the severe downside of Seal of Blood, which has done more damage to me than some opponents have.
Yeah, Light is healing close to 1K when it heals. That is quite a bit. Things I need to do better are evaluating the best judgement at the moment, and watching my healers mana, and switching to wisdom from Kings before he is OOM if it will keep him from drinking. As a team, we need to coordinate in general more, and the druid needs to go offensive when we decide to kill stuff.

Thanks all for the input!
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Re: PVP retri - help needed inside

Postby uke » Thu May 21, 2009 10:20 am

Since this topic has been brought up, I got a gearing/stats question while we're at it.

I'm currently working on honor-grinding a decent PVP set while trying to set up an arena team with some guildies. Basically, going for all hateful set gear with deadly offset pieces.

Problem is that I've noticed as I replace PVE gear with PVP gear, my crit chance goes down a nice chunk with every upgrade.

What kind of crit % chance is considered normal for PVP gear. I figure it's less than PVE, but how much? I think I'm at about 27% crit with my half PVE/half PVP gear I have now while gearing up. At what point do I go "whoa, getting too low there"?

Feel free to armory me, Ukeiron on Bonechewer. If I'm wearing Savage Glad shoulders, I'm in my PVP gear. FYI I plan on swapping the GLG I have equipped now with my DM:G I have in my bag, but was using only for PVE, but of course, that will drop my crit to about 25%, and dropping with more PVP gear purchases.

Anyway, input is welcome :)
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Re: PVP retri - help needed inside

Postby Angelarc6570 » Thu May 21, 2009 3:04 pm

uke wrote:Since this topic has been brought up, I got a gearing/stats question while we're at it.

I'm currently working on honor-grinding a decent PVP set while trying to set up an arena team with some guildies. Basically, going for all hateful set gear with deadly offset pieces.

Problem is that I've noticed as I replace PVE gear with PVP gear, my crit chance goes down a nice chunk with every upgrade.

What kind of crit % chance is considered normal for PVP gear. I figure it's less than PVE, but how much? I think I'm at about 27% crit with my half PVE/half PVP gear I have now while gearing up. At what point do I go "whoa, getting too low there"?

Feel free to armory me, Ukeiron on Bonechewer. If I'm wearing Savage Glad shoulders, I'm in my PVP gear. FYI I plan on swapping the GLG I have equipped now with my DM:G I have in my bag, but was using only for PVE, but of course, that will drop my crit to about 25%, and dropping with more PVP gear purchases.

Anyway, input is welcome :)


Minimum %5 hit is definitly necessary, more helps a lot b/c any missed damage, especially as a ret pally where we rely mostly on burst. I usually try to run with about 25 -27% chance to Crit and a bit Over 4k AP when running for burst. I agree that the PvP gear lacks a good deal of crit, but you can make up for it, like you said, through PvE gear.

Honestly, I may be wrong about this, but I wouldnt spend too much effort on the blue PvP gear, as it may hurt you more than it will help you. As a ret pally, you really are pretty squishy, even with a decent amount of resil, so, it may be better to keep that PvE gear rollin'.

Just my thoughts :)
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Re: PVP retri - help needed inside

Postby majiben » Thu May 21, 2009 3:15 pm

The blue PvP ring is a good pick if you are going to have few blue pvp pieces. Very well itemized.
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Re: PVP retri - help needed inside

Postby uke » Thu May 21, 2009 3:21 pm

Majiben wrote:The blue PvP ring is a good pick if you are going to have few blue pvp pieces. Very well itemized.


wait, which blue PVP ring are we talking about here?

Also, to Angelarc6570: only reason I have the savage glad shoulders is I bought them with emblems literally the week before 3.1, when I could have gotten hateful with honor, DOH! I'll be getting hateful everything else, with deadly offset pieces.
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Re: PVP retri - help needed inside

Postby majiben » Thu May 21, 2009 3:25 pm

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45809

Could have swore it was str not AP before. Still not bad
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Re: PVP retri - help needed inside

Postby Angelarc6570 » Thu May 21, 2009 3:41 pm

I was only commenting to your post that you made, I lack the ability to look at your armory from work. Gotta keep my mind sane somehow!!!

Can't comment on the blue ring though, can't look at that either :)
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Re: PVP retri - help needed inside

Postby Elsie » Fri May 22, 2009 1:15 am

uke wrote:I'm currently working on honor-grinding a decent PVP set while trying to set up an arena team with some guildies. Basically, going for all hateful set gear with deadly offset pieces.

Problem is that I've noticed as I replace PVE gear with PVP gear, my crit chance goes down a nice chunk with every upgrade.

What kind of crit % chance is considered normal for PVP gear. I figure it's less than PVE, but how much? I think I'm at about 27% crit with my half PVE/half PVP gear I have now while gearing up. At what point do I go "whoa, getting too low there"?

Feel free to armory me, Ukeiron on Bonechewer. If I'm wearing Savage Glad shoulders, I'm in my PVP gear. FYI I plan on swapping the GLG I have equipped now with my DM:G I have in my bag, but was using only for PVE, but of course, that will drop my crit to about 25%, and dropping with more PVP gear purchases.

Firstly, there is no "normal" crit chance. Secondly, please link your armory if you want me to look at it.

PvE Gear is only good for PvP if it has no Armor Pen, no expertise, and preferably no haste. It's also only good if it is plate. The only concession is with a weapon, such as Worldcarver, since you're unlikely to have a replacement and "top end" / DPS matter pretty significantly. For example, in s5 and early I used the tier 7.5 shoulders because the piece is so well itemized. In s6, I'm using the Furious shoulders with the t8.5 pants. I'm also using Worldcarver since it saves me the points I'd be spending on an 1850 weapon. Ideally, I'd replace Worldcarver with the 1850 Furious weapon and then replace my pvp trinket (108 resilience) with the 190 AP one or simply keep the higher total resilience.

The blue PvP ring is a good pick if you are going to have few blue pvp pieces. Very well itemized.

As far as rings go, there's no reason to get the blue crafted one at all. In fact, I'd rather use Ruthlessness (and whatnot) despite the expertise simply because the item level is so much higher. It's a moot discussion, at any rate, since both hateful and deadly rings can be had with honor (if I am recalling correctly).

There are some things I could, perhaps, stress.
Firstly, 5% hit is mandatory. Some classes have over 5% miss chance, but it isn't worth going out of your way for them and hurting your overall performance. At 5.08% hit I've never seen my Hammer of Justice miss against a blood elf retribution paladin despite their 11% chance against spells. I'd also be losing a ton of STR or Crit to get that 6% that would be completely wasted against non-BE paladin/rogue teams (and rogues will be using Cloak of Shadows anyway so the miss chance isn't worth caring about there).

Secondly, socket bonuses aren't always worth it. I run a double DPS team, so I pretty much ignore 4 str, 4 resil, etc bonuses and just gem Strength. I also use a +20 Resilience gem in my Furious shoulders since the socket is yellow and I find myself getting killeda bit too quickly if I'm not careful (or they are lucky). However, if I ran a healer/Ret team, the 4 str socket bonus might interest me more since 12 str 12 stam isn't too bad - but I'd also probably be running the wintergrasp pvp trinket and thus losing 108 resil in the first place.

Thirdly, I almost always gem purely for STR. However, I'm currently rated ~2100 (goes up and down depending on how good a day we have). This means most healers that aren't warrior/druid (who mostly facerolled to their rating till 3.1.2) are running 900+, sometimes 1200+, resilience. I also do not spec for Righteous Vengeance as a personal preference, but in general hitting harder in the first place beats a reduced damage crit. That said, I currently have two +16 Hit gems (which I need to turn int +16 and +8 str/hit) to break 5%.


About blue pvp gear. I honestly haven't looked at it. Ever. It's my opinion, without even looking at it, that you are better off ignoring its existence. The biggest reason is item level. Even if they are itemized well, they are around item level 183 and deadly/naxx gear is item level 213. This is simply worlds apart. Then there's the fact Ret paladins are a DPS class without Mortal Strike or tons of offensive utility. This means you are in a lot of scenarios where the opponent is either dead or effectively full health. You're simply nerfing your damage too much for survivability. Then there's the question of if they are even worth the survivability at all. You will, flat out, not see much benefit from resilience until you break 400 and maybe not even till 600+. Furthermore, most ulduar plate is second-stat stam. The amount of stam on ulduar and some naxx pieces is literally insane. My t8.5 pants have 129 stam on them which is only 21 off from the deadly chest if you want to compare. I've honestly thought about trying to get a second set of t8.5 simply for the 4pc bonus and gemming them with resilience (and then they finally nailed the coffin on Exorcism).
So the item level is too low and the survivability, if any, probably isn't worth all the DPS loss.

As far as my gear, I have some minor tweaks to make. But I'm wearing 4pc pvp (3 deadly 1 furious), 1pc t8.5, all furious offspec with deadly ring, DMC:Greatness, deadly libram, resilience pvp trinket, and Worldcarver (with berserking). As an enchanter/engineer I have, unbuffed:
Melee Stats - 70 haste, 3595 AP, 170 hit rating, 26.70% crit chance, and 10 expertise.
Survival Stats - 23654 HP, 715 resilience.

Currently, I'm giving out this statement: Unless they make rocket boots worth it by saturday, I'll be a Jewelcrafter by Monday. The Pyro-mounted Rocket Gloves are simply not worth Engineering by themselves, and without the 16 critical strike rating from them is not worthwhile compared to a regem to STR gained with 12 hit 12 crit from Icewalker. Pre-stealth nerf, I would have told anyone to go Engineering if they're serious about PvP, but honestly it doesn't look worth it anymore to simply gain a 3000ish damage fire damage attack that can fall victim to grounding totem (though I suppose that's a nice way to save your stun).

If you have "stats" to aim for, I'd first work at 5% hit, then 3000 AP with over 20% crit.
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Re: PVP retri - help needed inside

Postby majiben » Fri May 22, 2009 2:59 am

Elise one of your major assumptions is ret PvE raid gear. Seems silly to assume that especially now that duel spec means that many prot players will be pvping as ret without the gear accommodations.
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Re: PVP retri - help needed inside

Postby ulushnar » Fri May 22, 2009 3:17 am

From the perspective of someone who tried PVPing in a mixture of Blue BoE craftable gear and blue PVP gear bought with EoH, I have to agree with Elise, the gains in survivability are negligable compared the the drop in damage output. It tries to straddle Damage and surviavbility, but the budget isn't strong enough to do either well. Even blue DPS drops from 5mans/heroics with a few craftables are going to make you more effective in PVP than the low level PVP gear.
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Re: PVP retri - help needed inside

Postby uke » Fri May 22, 2009 7:39 am

Elsie wrote:*snip*


Thanks Elsie for the tips.

I can't link armory from work. Would someone with armory access mind linking Ukeiron on Bonechewer? That would be swell of you.

My current PVP gear (which I'm working on changing) from memory, is:

Helm: Engineer goggles with RED meta and dps enchant
Neck: Deadly neck of triumph
Back: either deadly or hateful of victory w/ parachute enchant
Shoulders: Savage Glad shoulders, which I got right before hateful was buyable with honor, will eventually get hateful shoulders, but want to upgrade other gear first. Using lesser Hodir dps enchant (rep not to exalted yet)
Chest: T7 chest, however I'm 1k honor from the Hateful chest, which I plan on getting tonight. I'll likely put +8 stats (I'm a cheapskate like that) and a STR gem of sorts in it
Wrist: hateful bracers of triumph w/ AP enchant
Hands: I think it's "Gauntlets of Combined Strength" atm. I plan on getting Hateful gloves after the chest. using rocket gloves for enchant
Waist: a DPS belt from naxx (I forget name), socketed with a green gem (I forget which one) for meta requirements in the belt buckle
Pants: Hateful set piece with STR and STA gem (might go to double STR), and dps enchant
Feet: WG boots, Will put nitro boots on it.
Rings: Hateful band of triumph and a naxx DPS ring (forget name)
Trinkets: Currently GLG and MoT. However likely to replace one with DMC: Greatness, but which one? The 1000AP from MoT is good, but I like the double burst on demand of GLG+rocket gloves, even if they're 10 seconds apart.
Weapon: Claymore of Ancient power w/ Greater Savagery (not worth the money for Beserking). Really hoping for an Ironsoul drop from FL-10 tonight.
Libram: the emblem/naxx one with increased damage to Crusader Strike

Current stats (from memory), just over 21k HP, 27% crit, 3000-ish AP, 5.x% hit unbuffed

I currently have a few unenchanted pieces I just got, I'll fix those shortly.

My resilience is currently in the 300's, hoping to get it to at least 500 with some more PVP pieces.

I know that none of it is best in slot, but is the best of what I've had to work with given my playtime, so I know it's not quite uber.

I'm one of those "once an engineer, always an engineer" folks, which means I'm going to stick with it. Also blues have said that they're going to make nitro boots worth it down the road, so I'll stick it out and see (even if it means it's not uber in Arenas *right now*).

It's good to know that I'm not "doing it wrong" when my crit chance is lowering a bit, as long as I'm making up for it with plenty of +STR, I guess it evens out?

I'm a looooong way from even being able to think about being awesome in Arenas, but I'm looking to get my feet wet soon. However, I'm more looking forward to when BG's will be more significant again, like Blizz has been hinting at for the past few months. I would LOVE rated team BG's, which have a more "epic conflict" feel than arenas. But that's just me.
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