[DK] The DK Tanking thread

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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby Gracerath » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:42 am

Can't say I'm too thrilled with the current notes so I hope there are some tweaks to that down the line. Maybe I gear incorrectly or spec incorrectly but my HP's are already in line with other tanks at my gear level, I don't feel another nerf was needed.

I am mostly DPS frost and the change to frost strike kind of annoys me. I geared around not needing a whole lot of expertise since Frost Strike doesn't need it. Now I'll have to rethink my gearing choices. Also the new dual wielding talent seems interesting. I'm glad I picked up some 1hers that no one else wanted from Ulduar. I'm getting tired of looking at BoH, I wouldn't mind trying something new.

Currently it feels like they tipped the scales too far to the other side.
Bye space sword!
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby discerpo » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:37 am

First the nerf to Frost Presence armor and now the nerf to toughness ...
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby Falibard » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:55 am

I'm curious to see what they will offer DKs in compensation for all the damage reduction they're doing away with in the last patch and possibly in this next one. Maybe some kind of absorb bubble like bears get?
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby FeralMoons » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:27 am

Its unfortunate that we keep having to almost relearn this class as they continue to make sweeping changes each patch. Its getting to the point I just want to reroll again...nm I did! :P
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby mavfin » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:09 pm

Not going to say anything about the toughness or the Frost Presence changes, as we'll have to see how the numbers work out. If they're too low, then they'll have to pull some of that back. They're well known for overnerfing pre-PTR, anyway. However, the IBF change is long overdue. Hell, to *get* a 2 minute defensive cooldown AT ALL on my warrior takes a glyph and 2 talent points, so I don't see how not having a 1 minute cooldown will 'ruin' a Death Knight. (And yes, I have one, and I've tanked with it.)
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby Viycktor » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:35 pm

FeralMoons wrote:Its unfortunate that we keep having to almost relearn this class as they continue to make sweeping changes each patch. Its getting to the point I just want to reroll again...nm I did! :P

Yeah, but DKs are a new class, that's the deal, take it or leave it. Blizzard is STILL changing playstyle of Paladins (in all three trees), and they've been there from the beginning.

My DK (unholy dps/frost tank) is still lvl 78 (been leveling quickly thanks to the fire festival!) and just recently got his tanking gear squared away to be in line for 80 (it helps when tanking mobs 4 levels higher than you). And I'm not sure how some of these changes will affect leveling DKs... But I'm defeinitely trying to get to 80 before the patch hits (and I won't even have to spend gold to respec my tanking and dps specs now :)).

I understand the armor changes I think. They don't want high avoidance tanks with too much passive damage reduction. That makes sense. But these may be too much on top of the IBF change. I say this as someone who mainly plays a prot Paladin: YES 1min CDs feel OPed, but if they lower the EH of DKs enough, then it's important to always have a preemtive, on-demand damage reduction CD available. I think that was the original mindset that palced it at 1 min. This is mitigated by the fact that many spike damage attacks are magic-base, so AMS is available as well. Unholy still has bone shield and frost unbreakable armor for physical (I think that's waht it's called) and blood has WotN so it may be a wash in the end.

And I'm guessing the frost strike nerf was solely for PvP? I mean, great, ok, now expertise is even better for Frost tanks... but dangit you don't start getting gobs of the stuff until you're into epic gear, and high-end players will be focusing on hit and expertise for reasons of their other strikes (oblit), so it's realistically only another example of PvE leveling being a casualty of PvP... again.
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby discerpo » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:55 pm

Viycktor wrote: They don't want high avoidance tanks with too much passive damage reduction.



we used to have another 10% parry but that was changed to 5% reduction. The change from 10% hp to 6% stam is so-so i think 8% stam would be a little better. Yes my avoid is higher but my Hp is usually equal or lower then other classes, but with a few bad luck hits 1-2k can save your ass. only time will tell i just hope this PTR will get some things ironed out.
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby Falibard » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:45 am

Discerpo wrote: Yes my avoid is higher but my Hp is usually equal or lower then other classes, but with a few bad luck hits 1-2k can save your ass. only time will tell i just hope this PTR will get some things ironed out.


This is kind of the difficult scenario. It's hard to say without an armory what level your gear is but when you start to hit the end of Ulduar gear, I'm a good 5-6k hp ahead of the other tanks. Scaling back the stam buffs is reasonable as I'll probably be around the same HP again once I have 3.2 gear. This will make entry level DK tanks a bit squishier but it's kind of a necessary adjustment for the pve world.
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby amh » Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:09 pm

I'm curious about a few talents set up against each other for threat.

Sudden Doom 3/3 vs Blood Gorged 5/5 vs Morbidity 1,2,3/3 vs Ravenous Dead 3/3

Sudden Doom and Morbidity obviously becomes better when coupled to each other, but how about the rest? Would Blood Gorged be more threat per point than Morbidity?
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby Falibard » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:49 am

amh wrote:I'm curious about a few talents set up against each other for threat.

Sudden Doom 3/3 vs Blood Gorged 5/5 vs Morbidity 1,2,3/3 vs Ravenous Dead 3/3

Sudden Doom and Morbidity obviously becomes better when coupled to each other, but how about the rest? Would Blood Gorged be more threat per point than Morbidity?


Sudden Doom is near worthless as a tank talent. Blood Gorged is a great threat threat talent (some would say a must have for deep Blood). My personal view of the value of Morbidity in a Blood tank spec would be for its reduced DnD cooldown as I don't throw tons of Death Coils while I'm tanking.
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby amh » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:15 am

/runs off to respec

:(

However, you're missing out on Ravenous Dead. Point for point, which one would be better? (Blood Gorged vs Ravenous Dead).

Napkin-calculating how much parry-rating I would miss out on.. Yeah, not even going to mention the avoidance-loss, because it's near non-existant.
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby discerpo » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:34 am

Anyone check ou the new unholy blight yet? seems kinda lame at first, but the more i look at it it may not be that bad...

was just reduced to 20% from 30% but with UHB being added to deathcoil it makes DC my only dump(other then rune strike) meaning more single target threat. On top of that its a ranged effect and another placed dot.

I really liked UHB when runnung lowbie instances just run around using BB and keeoing UHB up o well.
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby Falibard » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:59 am

amh wrote:/runs off to respec

:(

However, you're missing out on Ravenous Dead. Point for point, which one would be better? (Blood Gorged vs Ravenous Dead).

Napkin-calculating how much parry-rating I would miss out on.. Yeah, not even going to mention the avoidance-loss, because it's near non-existant.


My spec is not cookie cutter, but it's pretty close. Blood Gorged is still the better than Ravenous Dead. I'm not BiS but I have higher end gear and I have 1116 unbuffed str. RD would give me 33.5 str unbuffed... 1% str per point vs. 2% total dmg and 2% ArP per point (when above 75% health).

The link in your sig doesn't work so I don't know what kind of gear you're in but Blood is the most demanding gear spec. If you're a fresh 80 you may want to tank in another spec until your gear allows you to be at(near) hit/expertise cap.
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby amh » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:16 am

Fixed. And yeah, I realize that blood is more gear-demanding, but I personally love it. I'm not having threat-issues, and it's just my baby alt that I can play around with. My aoe-threat is absolutely dire, but it works :)


Picking up Blood Gorged, so thanks.
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:05 am

Falibard, I notice you take Death Rune Mastery in your builds, does this mean you're running a HS-heavy rotation rather than the DS-heavy alternative? Last I had heard the DS rotation without DRM was superior, so I'm curious.
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby Splug » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:10 pm

I use DRM to make it easier to fire rune tap. It also allows for a more fluid transition to a dps role, as well as superior threat over multiple targets or while at full health. Basically, it provides options during combat instead of forcing the pre-planed rotation to be perpetuated mindlessly; they're not always better options, but the frequency at which they are is nontrivial.

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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby Splug » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:18 pm

amh wrote:I'm curious about a few talents set up against each other for threat.

Sudden Doom 3/3 vs Blood Gorged 5/5 vs Morbidity 1,2,3/3 vs Ravenous Dead 3/3

Sudden Doom and Morbidity obviously becomes better when coupled to each other, but how about the rest? Would Blood Gorged be more threat per point than Morbidity?
Ravenous Dead provides a fairly low threat increase; it's a strong dps talent due to the ghoul contribution, but that's negligible for a tank. Sudden doom is in a similar spot - it's a low contributor normally, and only gets worse when heart strikes get squeezed out of the rotation by parries/dodges. I recall comparing the damage I'd gain from taking Subversion (and having a heart strike crit) versus the damage from a non-crit deathcoil, and the difference between an HS crit/noncrit was higher by a large enough factor to convince me not to bother with sudden doom. If I switch to the vengeful heart sigil, that math may change (and I may have not included raid buffs) but if you can't afford subversion, sudden doom isn't worthwhile either.

Blood gorged is pretty much a staple. Armor penetration applies to rune strike. The damage increase applies to rune strike when you're at or near full health, and with the current large hit sizes you almost always are either full, or about to die. Morbidity is an excellent way to compensate for blood's inherently low AE threat at least slightly, and I recommend the investment on that ground alone. The minor single target threat increase is probably comparable to sudden doom and better than Ravenous Dead anyway.

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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby Falibard » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:36 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Falibard, I notice you take Death Rune Mastery in your builds, does this mean you're running a HS-heavy rotation rather than the DS-heavy alternative? Last I had heard the DS rotation without DRM was superior, so I'm curious.


Well right now I have a Blood Tank build and a Blood DPS build.

I like the flexibility of DRM. If I need to HS spam for threat, I can. If I need to go DS heavy DRM doesn't negatively affect me in anyway, but if I need a Blood rune on demand for Rune Tap or VB I have that option too. I also like the ability to BB spam for trash and still hold threat (unless someone is single targeting something).

I actually don't think I've seen a Blood build without DRM come to think of it. I'm pretty sure two HSs will always net more threat/damage than one DS. The only real benefit I could see to using a DS heavy rotation is to have more open GCDs which in Blood means... more Death Coils?

Two Vezax encounters I tanked:
5711 TPS/2256 DPSDS Heavy
5978 TPS/2449 DPSHS Heavy

I'm willing to attribute a little of that to RNG (higher avoidance = more rune strikes) but in all of my HS heavy rotations I always net more threat/dmg.
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:54 pm

Well I haven't really been reading much about DKs since the 3.1 changes, but around the time the DS buffs were coming out I was reading that the 2xDS rotation was better than the 4xHS one. Things might have changed.

The flexibility is a good point, however. I just don't know where I would find points in a build to take DRM right now (wait, nevermind. I can easily drop Imp. Blood Presence, and can probably find one other somewhere).
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby Falibard » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:59 pm

Link your build.
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:06 pm

Right now my DK is only 74, so this is all me trying to learn a bit more to be ready for 80. The build I was heading towards was this one:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EGqc0IsbMbssxhxZ0gh
But there are a few things in there I'm not certain about (Imp. Blood Presence, Morbidity, Scent of Blood, and now DRM, heh).
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby Falibard » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:32 pm

I'd probably say lose Imp Blood Presence and you probably won't notice a big difference between 2/3 & 3/3 Scent of Blood.
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby amh » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:22 pm

So I changed my spec a bit, thanks for the input. Threat was a lot better :) Man this class is more fun and demanding than paladin.
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby Falibard » Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:17 am

amh wrote:So I changed my spec a bit, thanks for the input. Threat was a lot better :) Man this class is more fun and demanding than paladin.


It's certainly different. I love/hate the resource system and really like managing my cooldowns.
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Re: [DK] The DK Tanking thread

Postby amh » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:55 pm

Just noticed how much worse my threat is when I'm lacking the buffs you take for granted in 25man - kings, might, leader of the pack, melee haste.. :(

Just did Heartbreaker, and for example having to save death runes for Death Strike instead of mindlessly spamming HS really had an impact on my threat. Not bad enough to hold anyone back, but it's a whole new world having to prioritize like that. Great fun. Did 220k healing to myself during the course of the fight, including numerous DS, Rune Tap, Death Pact, Gift of the Naaru and a healing potion :)

Oh and yeah, on-demand huge self-healing with Vampiric Blood -> DS-spam is overpowered
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