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[Ret-PVE] SoR > SoC? without talents + glyph?

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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[Ret-PVE] SoR > SoC? without talents + glyph?

Postby semp » Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:56 pm

Does SoR > SoC currently, even without the talent and glyph?
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Re: [Ret-PVE] SoR > SoC? without talents + glyph?

Postby atropos457 » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:17 pm

I'm at work and can post the numbers from a dummy session when I get home, but unless it's changed from late beta they are so close as to make little difference. Even with the scarcity of pure dps-increasing talents, I consider SoC a waste. The situations in which SoB is too much of a liability are few and far between. Glyphed, SoC comes out on top, but no ones glyphs SoC. Right? RIGHT?!?
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Re: [Ret-PVE] SoR > SoC? without talents + glyph?

Postby uke » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:21 am

My latest ret talents builds skip Command for both PVP and PVE.

If it's an issue in PVE (Gluth), i'll just either stop attacking for a moment, or temporarily switch to SoR until it's safe to go SoM (Martyr) again.

In PVP, I just go with SoM. The backlash from Martyr/Blood has been significantly toned down this patch.

Seal of Command is dead for all purporoses, atm. Hopefully they'll change or buff it in the future, as there is zero reason to use it in any form.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] SoR > SoC? without talents + glyph?

Postby Dracora » Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:43 am

uke wrote:My latest ret talents builds skip Command for both PVP and PVE.

If it's an issue in PVE (Gluth), i'll just either stop attacking for a moment, or temporarily switch to SoR until it's safe to go SoM (Martyr) again.

In PVP, I just go with SoM. The backlash from Martyr/Blood has been significantly toned down this patch.

Seal of Command is dead for all purporoses, atm. Hopefully they'll change or buff it in the future, as there is zero reason to use it in any form.


I don't get how you guys go without using SoC especially in PvP. I'll beat out a Ret pally who is using SoB in my PvP gear while I use SoC any day. They're killing themselves and helping me out.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] SoR > SoC? without talents + glyph?

Postby uke » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:05 am

Dracora wrote:
uke wrote:My latest ret talents builds skip Command for both PVP and PVE.

If it's an issue in PVE (Gluth), i'll just either stop attacking for a moment, or temporarily switch to SoR until it's safe to go SoM (Martyr) again.

In PVP, I just go with SoM. The backlash from Martyr/Blood has been significantly toned down this patch.

Seal of Command is dead for all purporoses, atm. Hopefully they'll change or buff it in the future, as there is zero reason to use it in any form.


I don't get how you guys go without using SoC especially in PvP. I'll beat out a Ret pally who is using SoB in my PvP gear while I use SoC any day. They're killing themselves and helping me out.



Two reasons:

1. The backlash for martyr/blood is miniscule enough (esp. with 3.1) that sacred shield+AoW heal+Judgement of Light more than makes up for it.
2. The damage output is substantially more than SoC, with no internal cooldown. I can autoattack+CS+DS with Martyr hitting (and often critting) on all 3 attacks.

The above two reasons combined make it far superior.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] SoR > SoC? without talents + glyph?

Postby Dracora » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:06 am

uke wrote:

Two reasons:

1. The backlash for martyr/blood is miniscule enough (esp. with 3.1) that sacred shield+AoW heal+Judgement of Light more than makes up for it.
2. The damage output is substantially more than SoC, with no internal cooldown. I can autoattack+CS+DS with Martyr hitting (and often critting) on all 3 attacks.

The above two reasons combined make it far superior.


1) If you're PvPing with SoB, I'm sorry, I will kill you. You're doing 1k damage to yourself every time you judge. If you want to use Sheath of Light you just reset your swing timer. In PvE, if the raid damage is too much (which it seemed to be on Hodir in 10 man), I simply just cannot use SoB or I will die (I understand this is a healing problem, but I should be working to be a solution, not make the healers day more nightmarish.).

2) You're right, SoB does, I'm not contensting that whatsoever.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] SoR > SoC? without talents + glyph?

Postby Jasari » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:14 am

Dracora wrote:
uke wrote:

Two reasons:

1. The backlash for martyr/blood is miniscule enough (esp. with 3.1) that sacred shield+AoW heal+Judgement of Light more than makes up for it.
2. The damage output is substantially more than SoC, with no internal cooldown. I can autoattack+CS+DS with Martyr hitting (and often critting) on all 3 attacks.

The above two reasons combined make it far superior.


1) If you're PvPing with SoB, I'm sorry, I will kill you. You're doing 1k damage to yourself every time you judge. If you want to use Sheath of Light you just reset your swing timer. In PvE, if the raid damage is too much (which it seemed to be on Hodir in 10 man), I simply just cannot use SoB or I will die (I understand this is a healing problem, but I should be working to be a solution, not make the healers day more nightmarish.).

2) You're right, SoB does, I'm not contensting that whatsoever.



This might be your anecdotal experience, but nearly all high rated (2k+) ret pallies used blood/martyr for PvP last season and I see no reason for that to change this season. I'm sure there are times when Command is better, and dueling against another ret pally might be one of those times.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] SoR > SoC? without talents + glyph?

Postby Dracora » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:29 am

Jasari wrote:This might be your anecdotal experience, but nearly all high rated (2k+) ret pallies used blood/martyr for PvP last season and I see no reason for that to change this season. I'm sure there are times when Command is better, and dueling against another ret pally might be one of those times.


I can't really speak for Arenas. I don't really get involved in them too much.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] SoR > SoC? without talents + glyph?

Postby uke » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:10 pm

Dracora wrote:1) If you're PvPing with SoB, I'm sorry, I will kill you. You're doing 1k damage to yourself every time you judge.


Not anymore. The backlash from judgement is tiny (as judgement does less damage in general). In PVP, raids, etc I'm not noticing any noticable deficit from SoB anymore. The MUCH larger amount of damage I'm putting out at the very small hit to life I'm incurring will beat a SoC pally anyday. Add in Judgement of Light and Sacred Shield, and I'll likely not take any damage from SoB at all, while I'll just plain out-slug you.

Dracora wrote:If you want to use Sheath of Light you just reset your swing timer.


That's been fixed too. In fact, 3.1 rendered both of your points invalid. That, and the most successful ret pallys in PVP got there by using SoB over SoC.

Like I said, SoC has no real advantage at all, and 3.1 sealed that fact even further. SoC is effectively dead.
Pally's been relegated to AH duties.

RAWR'ing it up as a bear now, with a side of boomkin.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] SoR > SoC? without talents + glyph?

Postby uke » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:12 pm

Dracora wrote:
Jasari wrote:This might be your anecdotal experience, but nearly all high rated (2k+) ret pallies used blood/martyr for PvP last season and I see no reason for that to change this season. I'm sure there are times when Command is better, and dueling against another ret pally might be one of those times.


I can't really speak for Arenas. I don't really get involved in them too much.


You say you can't speak for arenas, when it's the microscope that PVP viability is examined under atm. The top paladins in Arena (THE current PVP indicator) all use Blood/Martyr. Not to mention that 3.1 removed even more liabilities of SoB (as outlined in my above post). I think the conclusion is fairly clear.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] SoR > SoC? without talents + glyph?

Postby Dracora » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:02 pm

uke wrote:
Dracora wrote:1) If you're PvPing with SoB, I'm sorry, I will kill you. You're doing 1k damage to yourself every time you judge.


Not anymore. The backlash from judgement is tiny (as judgement does less damage in general). In PVP, raids, etc I'm not noticing any noticable deficit from SoB anymore. The MUCH larger amount of damage I'm putting out at the very small hit to life I'm incurring will beat a SoC pally anyday. Add in Judgement of Light and Sacred Shield, and I'll likely not take any damage from SoB at all, while I'll just plain out-slug you.

Dracora wrote:If you want to use Sheath of Light you just reset your swing timer.


That's been fixed too. In fact, 3.1 rendered both of your points invalid. That, and the most successful ret pallys in PVP got there by using SoB over SoC.

Like I said, SoC has no real advantage at all, and 3.1 sealed that fact even further. SoC is effectively dead.


Good to hear I'm wrong about the swing timer.

I don't use JoL honestly, I always use JoJ. Yet doing 1k to 1500 damage from a judgement isn't a lot to you?
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Re: [Ret-PVE] SoR > SoC? without talents + glyph?

Postby Dorvan » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:19 pm

Dracora wrote:I don't use JoL honestly, I always use JoJ. Yet doing 1k to 1500 damage from a judgement isn't a lot to you?


Not if I can heal it and it allows be to do more extra damage to my opponent over command than it does to me (which is the case).
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Re: [Ret-PVE] SoR > SoC? without talents + glyph?

Postby Vengence » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:39 am

I am actually leveling ret right now, and using command, as i am not able to pick up blood till 60 something. I would not mind putting the point somewhere else, but i have not seen anything the debate anything other than SoB and SoC. So at 51, which i am now, should i be using something other than SoC? I have glyphed SoC, but i can change that to something more usefull too, and i dont mind paying to respec.

Please let me know, i could not find any answers one way or another.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] SoR > SoC? without talents + glyph?

Postby semp » Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:06 am

With the 0/17/54 DG build, I dont see SoM/SoB being an issue on any raid encounter. The shield absorbs a good bit of the backlash and instant FoL when needed.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] SoR > SoC? without talents + glyph?

Postby Dracora » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:24 am

I have a real jacked up spec on my pally. We used to have 40 second HoJ, but now it's back to 1 friggin minute (I experimented and tried imp HoJ for a 20 second CD). If I do get some PvP in, I'll go a week or two without SoC and see how I do with it. I just don't like how without JoJ on my opponents they can run away and kite me. Most irritating thing to me which is why I love JoJ so much.
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