[Ret-PVE] 3.1 Haste and Armor Pen

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[Ret-PVE] 3.1 Haste and Armor Pen

Postby semp » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:06 am

In 3.1 i heard some people talking about vast improvements for haste and armor pen for ret. How much better are they going to be, considering they are at the bottom of the list of desireable ret stats at the moment.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] 3.1 Haste and Armor Pen

Postby Baelor » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:12 am

Some damage from Judgement of the Martyr is being shifted to the associated seal. Since seal damage is tied to auto-attack and haste can affect auto-attack, the value of haste goes up.

In addition, haste's value to melee attackers is going up in 3.1, as haste will give 30% more benefit to melee attackers than in the current WoW version.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] 3.1 Haste and Armor Pen

Postby Jasari » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:17 am

^^^

However I haven't heard of any changes to armor pen to make it better for ret.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] 3.1 Haste and Armor Pen

Postby majiben » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:28 am

ArmPen is scaling better now from what I remember (better conversion ratio) but this is offset by the changes to Sunder Armor and FF to % rather than a flat reduction in armor. This make it worse in 3.1 than 3.0 for the levels of armpen ret paladins are likely to get (though at high levels of armpen it gets better, but you're not going to get that much).

Haste is better with the SoB changes and haste conversion change.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] 3.1 Haste and Armor Pen

Postby theothersteve7 » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:49 pm

Majiben wrote:but this is offset by the changes to Sunder Armor and FF to % rather than a flat reduction in armor.


Huh? Isn't that a good thing? It prevents your own AP from gear from being devalued, I thought. At least, that's what my hunter friend told me. Still not great for Ret because holy damage bypasses armor anyway, though.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] 3.1 Haste and Armor Pen

Postby semp » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:51 pm

so we are going to see a small increase to sob damage done on auto attacks, and a slight increase to auto attack damage. Will be interesting to see how much that is going to be.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] 3.1 Haste and Armor Pen

Postby Nich » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:35 pm

Baelor wrote:In addition, haste's value to melee attackers is going up in 3.1, as haste will give 30% more benefit to melee attackers than in the current WoW version.

Not that I'm in any way doubting the veracity of that, but do you have a link handy showing it? I completely don't remember seeing it, so I'm curious as to what else I missed : \

edit: nvm, found it on http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnot ... notes.html - was probably annoyed at AW and Hysteria no longer stacking, and didn't notice haste right beside it :<
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Re: [Ret-PVE] 3.1 Haste and Armor Pen

Postby Elsie » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:59 pm

Armor pen is getting 25% more effectiveness, and the change to Sunder/FF makes it stronger.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] 3.1 Haste and Armor Pen

Postby Questioner » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:56 am

Elsie wrote:Armor pen is getting 25% more effectiveness, and the change to Sunder/FF makes it stronger.


Actually, you have to cross a threshold first for it to be stronger, otherwise its weaker. Somewhere in the EJ thread they talk about it.

Considering we aim for minimal ArP on our gear in the first place, it'll probably be a nerf to ArP pieces.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] 3.1 Haste and Armor Pen

Postby Elsie » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:02 am

Actually, you have to cross a threshold first for it to be stronger, otherwise its weaker. Somewhere in the EJ thread they talk about it.

No, you have to cross a threshhold for the new ArP to be better than the previous Sunder/FF. Not for the stat to be stronger by the change. ArP is strictly better in its 3.1 form.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] 3.1 Haste and Armor Pen

Postby Selinaria » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:33 pm

Elsie wrote:
Actually, you have to cross a threshold first for it to be stronger, otherwise its weaker. Somewhere in the EJ thread they talk about it.

No, you have to cross a threshhold for the new ArP to be better than the previous Sunder/FF. Not for the stat to be stronger by the change. ArP is strictly better in its 3.1 form.


^This.

Baelor wrote:In addition, haste's value to melee attackers is going up in 3.1, as haste will give 30% more benefit to melee attackers than in the current WoW version.


Worth noting that the haste bonus is only applicable to shamans, paladins, druids, and death knights. Warriors and rogues will see no change.
Blizzard wrote:Haste Rating: shamans, paladins, druids, and death knights now receive 30% more melee haste from Haste Rating.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] 3.1 Haste and Armor Pen

Postby theothersteve7 » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:59 pm

So do we have any preliminary estimates? Is Armor Penetration comparable to crit now? The Haste buff still seems pretty inconsequential, sadly, as even a 30% buff still leaves it under agility most of the time from my figures.

*edit* Well, inconsequential is a bit of a strong word. It's still the worst stat you're likely to see, but not by nearly as much.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] 3.1 Haste and Armor Pen

Postby Baelor » Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:41 pm

Selinaria wrote:
Baelor wrote:In addition, haste's value to melee attackers is going up in 3.1, as haste will give 30% more benefit to melee attackers than in the current WoW version.


Worth noting that the haste bonus is only applicable to shamans, paladins, druids, and death knights. Warriors and rogues will see no change.
Blizzard wrote:Haste Rating: shamans, paladins, druids, and death knights now receive 30% more melee haste from Haste Rating.

Whoops. Forgot that part.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] 3.1 Haste and Armor Pen

Postby Elsie » Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:27 pm

afaik the stat order is still str > hit > expertise > Crit > haste > ArP. In 3.0.9 str is worth, like, 289 dps per 100 str and arp is worth 38 per 100 ArP. In 3.1 ArP and Haste will be relatively better but I can't put a number on it yet.

In general, though, BiS pre-3.1 is still BiS.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] 3.1 Haste and Armor Pen

Postby majiben » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:04 pm

Elsie wrote:
Actually, you have to cross a threshold first for it to be stronger, otherwise its weaker. Somewhere in the EJ thread they talk about it.
No, you have to cross a threshhold for the new ArP to be better than the previous Sunder/FF. Not for the stat to be stronger by the change. ArP is strictly better in its 3.1 form.
Say for instance if all the SoB damage was shifted to JoB and haste was still increased by 30%. Haste is suddenly worse than it was in 3.0 despite giving a larger percentage of weapon haste per point. That's what happened in this situation. ArP is worse than in 3.0 in general (as shown there are some unusually high levels where it's better) because of the Sunder/FF change. It doesn't matter if it gives a larger percentage of armor piecing if that percentage has been devalued to the point that 1.3% ArP in 3.1 is less dps than 1% in 3.0.
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