[Ret-PvE] considering going ret for mainspec. help?

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[Ret-PvE] considering going ret for mainspec. help?

Postby thorn » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:25 am

Thread title tagged. Welcome to the off-spec forum! Please enjoy your stay. -Baelor

my guild's main tanking core includes me and two death knights. i am the only main tank who wears a shield, so i pretty much have a monopoly on all block gear and shields that drop (i roll against the dk's for avoidance plate). whatever pieces i don't need, i pass to the fury warriors and other paladins. for a long time, i've felt rather privileged to be in this position. i am usually the main tank for almost every raid we do and everybody loves it when i am tanking, mostly because of the ridiculous amount of threat i frontload and because i keep a sharp eye on mobs that get loose.

i got almost all the gear i need very quickly (barring the kt axe, shield, and helm, argh). it all drops so frequently that now i pass it all to the offspecs and that's right as rain as far as i am concerned. the problem is that, while i am there for almost every raid and can pass all the block gear, i can never seem to get a piece of damned ret gear. ever. our dps isn't as steady as our tanks, so every time a new piece drops that i would feasibly be able to roll on for offspec, coincidentally a new recruit is there to snatch it up for mainspec. and then they don't show up for another two raid lockouts and we bring in some other dps, and then they need the gear too. it's like i can never catch a break when it comes to offspec gear.

granted, i didn't mind this at first... until i started seeing a couple warriors or rets go prot. if a dk can't make it, our two fury's will take turns going prot or our retadin. the warriors in particular are what i noticed: they have 5/5 valorous dps and tank sets (that is an problem with shitty token droprates, tho) PLUS all my block gear PLUS broken promise and patchwerk shields. they are as geared as i am in their offspec. wtf.

my ret gear isn't so bad. it's 4/5 heroes with zeliek's gauntlets and badge bracers, with everything i could get outside of 25mans. i am a good ret paladin, sometimes doing better overall damage or dps than our 4/5 valorous retadin with betrayer. i used to be ret in tbc and i follow ret updates and elitistjerks info, so usually i am teaching them how to play their class (something they hate admitting, often saying they know better because i don't have experience as ret in wotlk... until i respec and show them up with my heroes and 186dps weapons).

i have been patiently waiting for them to get all the dps gear so that i could roll for offspec, but i was very perturbed when a new feral druid joined the guild and was in naxx with us the next day (temporarily as boomkin since his feral gear was so blue). we downed maexxna and jawbone drops. YES! second best in slot for ret! woot. we still have a waitlist (so to speak) on betrayers, so i was more than happy to get this and be content until ulduar.

and then the damned druid gets it because his lone mainspec roll trumps my lone offspec roll. wtf? jawbone for a druid? that's like eighth or tenth best in slot for them, with 10naxx staves being better. but because it was a clear upgrade for him, he gets it. it was almost like a mage rolling on healing gear because it has more spell power than his blues. i didn't protest because it's not THAT important, and it was in line with our loot rolls, but still. wtf.

we are moving to a dkp system in ulduar (probably epgp), but we will keep our mainspec > offspec rule because really, doing it any other way is counter-productive for the guild. but i am pretty sure that if i change my mainspec to ret, i will get all the prot gear i need as offspec before long... but i will have more PR than all these new recruits, so i will get ret gear too. and damned good ret gear.

if i switch my mainspec to ret, i will be raiding as ret more often than not, but i will set my dualspec to prot and i can change to prot as often as the guild needs while still rolling on ret gear as my mainspec. even if i never got prot upgrades from ulduar, i'm pretty sure i will be one of the best tanks regardless. i can get 2/4 conquerers from badges and wear my old 2/4 valorous with all my crazy block gear, and rock it.



TL;DR: our dps has two full sets of best in slot dps and prot gear. i am tired of having only one good set of gear because my mainspec is prot and the ratio of people rolling on tank gear, to people rolling on dps gear, is 1/5 (theoretically).



does anybody have any advice? criticism? what can i do? am i a bad person for considering this? :-|
Last edited by thorn on Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: considering going ret for mainspec.

Postby Vioarr » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:35 am

Not sure how your loot system is setup specifically, but it'd certainly suck to have a new paladin tank come in and get priority for gear because your "Main" spec is Ret.

That said, it sounds kind of like you want to have your cake and eat it to. If new recruits/raiders are getting 25 man loot over the dependable people, it sounds more like an issue with your item distribution than just dps getting gear. I'd recommend staying prot main spec and getting the ret gear as you go.
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Re: considering going ret for mainspec.

Postby thorn » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:45 am

our system of loot distribution right now is just /roll with mainspec > offspec. we decided to go this way because it is so easy to pug 25naxx and win gear from a /roll that way. if a person knows they are low on dkp, they will just skip our raid and /roll in a pug. when ulduar comes out, we expect that it will be harder to successfully pug, so that shouldn't be a problem.

as far as eating cake is concerned, i never expected to until i saw ALL our dps having THEIR cake and eating it too. all of them. and i wouldn't mind a new prot paladin getting tank gear; he SHOULD get it. i can wait on my prot gear anyways, since my naxx25 gear is sufficient to tank most of ulduar easily anyways. but since tanks don't come and go as fast as dps, it will be easier to pick up offspec prot pieces than it is to pickup offspec dps pieces. this is evidenced already by our warriors having all the same tank gear i have PLUS having dank dps sets.
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Re: considering going ret for mainspec. help?

Postby Zironic » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:50 am

Your situation is a direct consequence of your loot system. We use dkp and we don't have any issues with people sneaking off to pugs for the simple reason that they're not allowed to pug.
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Re: considering going ret for mainspec. help?

Postby thorn » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:14 am

that's why we're switching to dkp come ulduar, but that is not the particular issue i'm talking about. even in a dkp situation, mainspec > offspec will cause the same problem to keep happening. a single mainspec roll will trump ten high-dkp offspec rolls. unless we allow people to spend their dkp on anything with no spec restrictions, be it prot, holy, or dps... which i think would hinder guild progression.

this is a pretty important decision for me, with consequences on either side.
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Re: considering going ret for mainspec. help?

Postby Andox » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:23 am

I think that our system works out pretty well, atleast in the meaning that I have a 25 man quality Retset. We use officer loot, people make a list of loot they want for their mainspecc, then we have a "role leader" nominate people who should get the loot and then the officers decide on who to give it to. Imo this is very good, loot is based on attendance, size of upgrade, performance and stuff.

When noone have it on their list, the item go for OS roll. The highest roller get it. Even if we are a very melee heavy guild we tanks still have very good DPS sets that we can use when 3.1 hit with dual speccs. Now I don't know how high rotation you have in your guild, but if you keep the core small you will eventually get some OS loot. I can't imagine that all of the DPS plate goes for MS, drops alot of it in the current content.
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Re: considering going ret for mainspec. help?

Postby sahiel » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:41 am

I think your system might need the addition of something like new recruits either get no 25 man loot for a 2 week (or whatever) trial period or that whilst they're on trial with your guild their bids count as offspec rather than main. It sucks to see gear go to someone who turns up once and never again or only once every few weeks, over someone who could potentially use that gear most nights.
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Re: considering going ret for mainspec. help?

Postby Kelaan » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:34 am

I think the most important thing is to talk to your guild and raid leaders about this, privately. Point out that it's frustrating to always lose upgrades to people (e.g, druid ...). Consider that as raid leader, before distributing the loot, they can say, "Mr. Feral McBoomkin, that mace is an upgrade for you, but pretty much every other weapon in here (and in 10-man) are better upgrades. Would you be willing to pass it to ___ who has been waiting on a weapon upgrade for several months?"

Sure, he can win in a main > off spec loot situation, but he also has the opportunity to pass.

In any case, your frustration at always having Yet Another New Guy slurp up all the ret upgrades, and then go MIA, might be an impetus to have a temporary limited upgrade policy for new people (or those who recently swapped to a new spec). For what it's worth, I think my guild does it similarly to yours -- I'm pretty much last in priority before disenchant on ret gear. It's frustrating that our DPS plate users have tanking gear up the wazoo, and my best weapon is from Zul'Drak. ;) My frustration about this is only mild, though, as I've been fortunate on tank drops, and don't want to be selfish.

In 3.1, I'd LIKE a ret set with which to be able to do better dps when not tanking. I believe my best bet is to do 10-man Naxxramas, where I can ask to roll on ret gear rather than tanking gear. I'm not really interested in changing our loot system -- it isnt perfect but it's good enough that I'm happier with it than the alternatives.
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Re: considering going ret for mainspec. help?

Postby Belloc » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:36 am

This is why I actually enjoy missing guild Naxx raids. You can join a pug as ret or as prot with the agreement being that you will be rolling on ret gear.

If you're not willing to do that, just ask your raid leader nicely. If they say no, then just deal with it.
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Re: considering going ret for mainspec. help?

Postby Zironic » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:02 am

Personally we just roll with free for all dkp bidding(within common sense) and the laws of economics generally make mainspec>offspec. Obviously a veteran player is more likely to be able to buy an offspec item then a new player is able to buy a mainspec one but that is a deserved perk of being a veteran player.
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Re: considering going ret for mainspec. help?

Postby Aanar » Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:02 am

My guild uses dkp with blind bidding. Officially there's no mainspec / offset distinction. Though if you're min bidding on offspect, you can note to pass to any mainspecs that need it to be nice. People naturally tend toward bidding higher on a mainspec. Trying to medium bid on two specs just means you'll hardly win anything.

Anyway, I've been mostly ret since we have plently of healers. I had been hoping to put together a Holy spec seeing that so many people complain about how often sp plate and mail get DE'ed. But, we've kind of had a similar thing to the orignal poster. Everytime the main holy pallies get geared up enough that I think I'll start getting new drops, some new holy pal shows up. Oh well, ret is fun enough. Mostly was just trying for a holy set to help out if we were short on healers come dual-spec time.

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Re: considering going ret for mainspec. help?

Postby thorn » Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:42 am

Belloc wrote:This is why I actually enjoy missing guild Naxx raids. You can join a pug as ret or as prot with the agreement being that you will be rolling on ret gear.

If you're not willing to do that, just ask your raid leader nicely. If they say no, then just deal with it.


that is not an option for me, heh. i am an officer and main tank. ;-/

i am also trying to design our new dkp system, which is another reason that this is an important issue to me. i'm not the only person that feels this way about dps gear. the dk tanks echo my sentiment. none of us can get any offspec loot and it's kindof burning us out on tanking. you can only tank the same shit over and over for so long when you are getting nothing from it. are we getting appreciation from our guildies? sure. but we're not playing this game for atta-boys and pats on the back. that's dumb. we're adults, not children.

as far as the dkp system goes, i already know i want to use EPGP with base GP to keep month-long-afkers from returning and winning uber drops they didn't work for. i also want to set minimum EP to which new raiders must aspire before recieving loot. but it's that in-between that's tough.

i think what i might do is institute some kind of thing where you can roll on offspec gear on the conditions that you a) already have higher priority ranking (PR) than all the people who want to roll for mainspec, and b) you are willing to pay like double or triple the GP cost of the item.

that should be enough to allow tanks or healers who are capped with mainspec gear to still be able to use their high PR on other stuff every once in a while, but then be plunged to the bottom of the PR list so they don't starve out the dps who legitimately need mainspec upgrades.

i'm just afraid of people using that to their advantage when something like fury of the five flights drops. but then again, we can always intervene with loot council on high-profile items like that, and enforce mainspec.
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Re: considering going ret for mainspec. help?

Postby Zironic » Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:59 am

I don't think you want offspec items to be more expensive then mainspec ones considering that many classes need 2-3 times more offspec items then they need mainspec ones, when offspec is too expensive you'll see a lot of disenchanting, disenchanting items that someone might want to use is really bad.
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Re: considering going ret for mainspec. help?

Postby thorn » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:09 pm

i was thinking to only jack up the price on mainspec items when you are bidding against another person who needs it for mainspec, otherwise if nobody needs it then it will be for half price or something. that seems like a good way to encourage people to wait on offspec until all the mainspec people have theirs, but it will also provide a way for those gear-capped on their mainspec to still get dps gear, since at that point they will have nothing to spend their PR on anymore and won't mind wasting it in order to get offspec gear earlier, albeit only once every week or two.
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Re: considering going ret for mainspec. help?

Postby Zironic » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:19 pm

Due to the fickle nature of lady luck I think you'll find that most people end up at 90% BiS and keep waiting for those one or two items that complete their set, the point where you're "done" with your main set and focus exclusively on offset almost never happens.
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