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[Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption/Rotation

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Lore » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

We're also forgetting haste in all of this, which might not end up having much of an impact, but Exo and Cons GCD's are affected.

I really wish that, instead of buffing melee haste, they let it apply to physical GCD's.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Elsie » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:01 pm

Lore wrote:I despise Arena PVP. Also, since J>DS>CS gave a higher uptime on CS, you'd get more libram benefit with it. Depends entirely on how we model "Break the rotation to use CS sometimes". Is it just CS>J>DS?

No, it's more complicated than that. It also involves consecration timer. I couldn't tell you much besides "It's a judgement call." (no pun intended). It's all anecdotal evidence, but I do nearly as much DPS as someone much more geared than me.

I really wish that, instead of buffing melee haste, they let it apply to physical GCD's.

physical GCDs are already 1s. I'd be rather comfortable with added haste benefit - I just wish we scaled better so I could hit 33% to bring Exorcism/consecration down to 1s.

Arena is fun... if you can find a healer with a brain. Admittedly, finding good players is harder than getting rating.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Lore » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:05 pm

I don't doubt it -- far too many Ret pallies just press whatever button they happen to feel like and then QQ about how they're only putting out 3.5k ;) J>DS>CS has been working well for me for a while, but one of its biggest draws for me is simplicity. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if something a little more complicated put out more DPS.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Lore » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:06 pm

Elsie wrote:physical GCDs are already 1s.


Common misconception. Physical GCD's are 1s for Rogues, Druids in cat form, and Death Knights in Unholy presence. They're 1.5 for everyone else.

I hate to cite Wowwiki, but: http://www.wowwiki.com/Global_cooldown. I have tested it myself.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Elsie » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:08 pm

Lore wrote:I don't doubt it -- far too many Ret pallies just press whatever button they happen to feel like and then QQ about how they're only putting out 3.5k ;) J>DS>CS has been working well for me for a while, but one of its biggest draws for me is simplicity. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if something a little more complicated put out more DPS.

Yeah, as I said, it was based on stuff I've read earlier and could be outdated now with my current gear. I honestly don't prioritize DS very highly compared to consecrate. In a way, you could consider it a mix between CS>J>DS and J>DS>CS. The idea would be to swap between the two such that you avoid more "negative" periods that each run into.

It's funny, because I was doing about 3.5-3.9k dps in blues/arena/naxx10/naxx25 mix with 2pc and he is doing ~4500 in Jawbone+4pc and most offset items. I imagine this week I'll be doing almost as much damage with my... Black Ice+4pc(25)+Ruthlessness.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Lore » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:10 pm

Only real reason I prioritize DS right now is due to RV. Between CS being added to RV and RV itself being nerfed in 3.1 I can easily see that changing.

I need to get some time on the PTR to pull some real numbers =\

In regards to DS vs Consecration, last I knew, the difference was 1 DPS in favor of Consecration in best-in-slot T7 gear :P
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Elsie » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:12 pm

Lore wrote:Only real reason I prioritize DS right now is due to RV. Between CS being added to RV and RV itself being nerfed in 3.1 I can easily see that changing.

I need to get some time on the PTR to pull some real numbers =\

DS on the PTR is 110% base now, though. That's a substantial boost. I'm not sure if it's enough to beat consecration in t8 gear - which scales Absurdly well.

(coefficients below are off memory)
Thinking about it, consecration scales off AP (43%) and SP(43%). Weapon damage scales roughly AP/14 or 7.13%. Given that SP=AP*0.3, that means consecration scales at 55.9% AP and DS scales at 7.13% AP before talents/PTR.
Of course, DS on the PTR has 1.06*1.1*1.1 = 28.26% extra dmg, which translates to 9.144938% AP scaling.
Last edited by Elsie on Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption/Rotation

Postby Lore » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:17 pm

Also true.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption/Rotation

Postby Fedaykin98 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:03 pm

I hate to expose myself as the non-theorycrafter that I am, but might I ask people to post exactly what rotations they are using PRE-3.1? I've been going with Baelor's:

J > HoW > CS > DS > Cons > Ex > HW

Using Libram of Radiance, and sadly, no 4pc. There is another Ret Pally who sometimes raids in my guild who is right at my heels, even though my gear is clearly better. He also likes Hit and Expertise. Maybe he flasks? I don't know, and I haven't flasked in weeks. I led in damage done on Sarth+1 last night without flasking, but he was less than 2000 damage done behind me, and maybe 15 DPS ahead of me. Obviously those differences are well within any margin or error / standard deviation, etc., but in general he tends to hang very close to me despite my significantly better gear.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption/Rotation

Postby Lore » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:16 pm

Above 20% I use J > DS > CS > Cons > Exo
Below 20% I use J > HoW > CS > DS > Cons > Exo
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption/Rotation

Postby Elsie » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:55 am

Lore wrote:Above 20% I use J > DS > CS > Cons > Exo
Below 20% I use J > HoW > CS > DS > Cons > Exo

I tested J > DS > CS tonight. It was terribly inefficient for me due to the deadly gladiator libram. I saw a loss of uptime and J/DS were consistently used without the +120 AP. J > Cons > CS and CS > J > Cons, by contrast, almost always had the libram effect up for J/DS and missed one or two ticks of Consecration (retaining a large benefit despite the ability being used first).

Of note, my Consecration ticks for 604. My Divine Storm crits for ~4500. This means Consecration averages out to 5500-6040 damage. By contrast, Divine Storm's estimated maximum damage is 6500 (5000 crit + 1500 RV). I'm not sure your scenario, but for me consecration is way ahead of Divine Storm in damage, thus priority. I think that almost any gear set up will put consecration ahead of divine storm currently.

edit: This is with -all- "permenant" (i.e., not CD) raid buffs except +2% physical damage.
edit2: In other news, our DPS isn't rock bottom anymore (not my SS) http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/9513/wowscrnshot032509200816.jpg
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption/Rotation

Postby Lore » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:43 am

Was this PTR testing or Live?

EDIT: Your testing, that is.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption/Rotation

Postby Fedaykin98 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:26 am

Yes, please, I am going insane trying to figure out whether people's posts are talking about live or PTR! :oops:

I suspect that I need to move Consecration up in my priority for the reasons described. So perhaps I should try J > Cons > CS > DS > Ex > HW?

Lore, I noticed you don't make mention of Holy Wrath. Are you not bothering to use it on single targets unless you have a ton of cooldown time with nothing else to use?

Thanks!
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption/Rotation

Postby Lore » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:29 am

I just throw in Holy Wrath when it's not on cooldown and I have a break in the rotation. I could possibly prioritize it in somewhere to always use it on cooldown (provided it outdamages something) but it'd be a miniscule DPS increase at best.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption/Rotation

Postby Fedaykin98 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:44 am

Elsie - one thought about Consecration outperforming DS - I suppose that would only apply to bosses who don't move. Which is a lot of them, of course.
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