[Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Selinaria » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:28 am

Selgar wrote:also I believe each Divine Storm hit is considered a seperate hit, so on multiple targets you will get 4 SoB procs and only 1 SoC proc.


^Truth, one of the biggest reasons SoB is better for trash.

Considering that Blizzard's listed intent is to shift damage over to the seal as per :

Seal of Blood/Seal of the Martyr: The damage done by these two seals has been increased but the damage done by their judgements decreased. The balance is now roughly 60% from either seal and 40% from a judgement on total damage done. The total damage done should be roughly the same.Please note that the 3.0.9 tooltips had incorrect values for the damage done, but the tooltips should be much more accurate in 3.1.0.

If they are going for the same judgement and seal damage, then this may be the one concession they make to self damage. Reducing it overall by having a bigger chunk of it fall under 10% self damage vs. 33% self damage will reduce overall damage intake by a bit while also making it slightly lest bursty overall.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Robbo » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:29 pm

Now I've been following this thread since the start, and while my take is closer to Lore's opinion, its pretty eff'd up if a dps takes more damage than a tank without trying:
http://wowwebstats.com/6n3ezko615v5c?s=221098-228738

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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Selgar » Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:42 am

[quote="SelinariaSeal of Blood/Seal of the Martyr: The damage done by these two seals has been increased but the damage done by their judgements decreased. The balance is now roughly 60% from either seal and 40% from a judgement on total damage done. The total damage done should be roughly the same.Please note that the 3.0.9 tooltips had incorrect values for the damage done, but the tooltips should be much more accurate in 3.1.0.[/quote]


This is totally the wrong way to go about this. So now instead of delaying a judgement, which is the current state of affairs, so we dont kill ourselves we have to completely turn off auto-attack as well.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Panzerdin » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:22 pm

No... Think about it. Seal damage gives you considerably less feedback damage than Judgement damage, so you will take less damage.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Selgar » Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:24 pm

No, it says they are increasing the damage done by the seal, so yes less feedback % (10 instead of 33) but it will hit you for more because the seal damage will be higher. Its the only way to make the total damage come out the same (decreasing judgment damage, increase seal damage). It says your feedback damage distribution will be 60/40. That's a pretty big difference from current distrubution which is probably closer to 80/20.

Right now you take about 100-200 feedback per hit on seal and about 2500 - 3k on judge**. So 2 hits, 1 CS, and .7 DS every Judge cycle. Thats a total of 2870-4160 total feedback damage per cycle. On the low end (minimum damage, single target), its roughly 13% feedback from seal damage, on the high end (max damage, 4 targets) is roughly 28% damage from seal. So it is basically going to at least double the damage from seals to get to 60/40 distribution, Im not saying we need to turn off auto-attack ALL the time but it will be twice as dangerous to leave it on, leaving it on during decimate for instance could be a considerable problem.

Seal damage gives you considerably less feedback damage than Judgement damage, so you will take less damage


The whole point was redistributing the damage so we wont take less we will just take it at a different time.


**- Numbers are from memory as I am at work but pretty sure they are close to average numbers.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Panzerdin » Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:26 pm

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Last edited by Baelor on Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited for inflammatory content
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Panzerdin » Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:36 pm

Let's do some thinking...

You do x damage. This damage is subdivided into y damage and z damage. y is multiplied by 0.33, and you take this as damage, while z is multiplied by 0.1, and you take this as damage. If y gets smaller and z gets bigger, while x remains constant, what is going to happen to your damage intake?
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Selgar » Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:07 pm

Ah, I see where we differ. I read that as you are going to take the same amount of "recoil" damage, it looks like you are interpreting it as we are going to do the same amount of "base" damage. In which case you are absolutely correct 40% of that damage will be at 10% recoil, 60% at 33% recoil so you take less overall damage. I interpreted it as recoil only so currently we take 100% recoil damage with about 80% from judgment and 20% from seals, with the change we would still take the same 100% damage just 60% from judge and 40% from seals.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Sharlos » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:13 am

to be honest I can see command getting removed.

Vengeance for tanking, Blood for Ret, Righteousness for Holy (idealy with the AP co-efficient removed). They'll have to remove it or take a good look at both Blood and Command to make sure both seals have a distinct role (PvP vs PvE an ideal one).
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Panzerdin » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:47 am

Selgar wrote:Ah, I see where we differ. I read that as you are going to take the same amount of "recoil" damage, it looks like you are interpreting it as we are going to do the same amount of "base" damage. In which case you are absolutely correct 40% of that damage will be at 10% recoil, 60% at 33% recoil so you take less overall damage. I interpreted it as recoil only so currently we take 100% recoil damage with about 80% from judgment and 20% from seals, with the change we would still take the same 100% damage just 60% from judge and 40% from seals.


Ah, I understand. Sorry, I thought you were just stupid. My bad.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Splug » Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:47 am

Either way, the ratio of useful damage to feedback damage is higher with a larger contribution from the seal. That's going to remain accurate for either interpretation, though I also read it as indicating damage output, not feedback. So in one case, you're taking less feedback and dealing more damage. In the other, you're taking the same feedback and dealing more damage. Either way, that sounds like the kind of change I wouldn't argue with.

And I still say if any damage class is down to <500 health, they should stop and bandage regardless of feedback risks. There are a few exceptions such as Gluth, but in general... if you're down that low, then you're probably getting hit by something and should consider doing something to fix that.

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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Selgar » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:31 am

Ah, I understand. Sorry, I thought you were just stupid. My bad.


It has been known to happen (though I will never admit it if you ask me) :lol:
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Lore » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:33 am

Change is good change all-around, both for itemization purposes (makes things like haste more of a worthwhile DPS stat and less something that could have been something else), and for smoothing out damage intake.

At this point I'm still unconvinced that we'll have to "completely stop all DPS" to avoid death on any encounter in Ulduar, so it's pretty much a non-issue. It only creates a liability if healers are having to work harder to keep us alive, and I don't see that being the case.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby ZombieRitual » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:45 pm

I guess we'll find out soon enough. I just hope that if it is proven to force us to stop dps at times to avoid dying, or unnecessarily tax healers, or both, that Blizzard would fix it in a timely matter, instead of waiting till 3.2 to do so.
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