[Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Elsie » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:22 am

Lore wrote:
Makaijin wrote:Bugged or not, Seal of Command is getting sidelined, rather badly so.


SoC is actually superior burst in PVP now (JoC is beating JoB). In PVE though, SoR is better.

Actually, it seems the melee swing difference is rather comparable to the judgement difference. So long as you get 1-2 swings in with SoB you probably come out ahead.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Kelaan » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:40 am

Is the sheep-breaking potential of JoB (or SoB) still a valid counterbalance to the (now) extra damage of SoC/JoC? The judgement of command damage didn't seem substantially higher than JoB -- only ~100?
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Questioner » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:44 am

Command didn't get buffed.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Lore » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:06 am

Not directly, but JoB got nerfed, so JoC is doing slightly more damage. From the EJ testing I saw it was somewhere around 200-300. Elsie's probably right in that the extra swing damage will make up for it (unless SoC procs, which might make SoC better just for the "chance of burst") in PVP.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby majiben » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:11 am

There's a lot to be said for the pressure that SoB let's you apply in PvP.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Elsie » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:13 am

Majiben wrote:There's a lot to be said for the pressure that SoB let's you apply in PvP.

This. SoC basically is no where near the pressure SoB applies. Even less judgment damage isn't too big a deal. Our stun is 40s now, so SoC is indirectly nerfed in pvp.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Lore » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:00 pm

More Judgement damage + a couple lucky procs is going to apply more pressure than SoB will either way though, unless SoB is doing more damage than SoC on every swing.

That was my point. It's a chance for higher burst, which is similar to old-style Ret pvp -- waiting for the numbers to line up, and capitalizing when they do.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Elsie » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:02 pm

Lore wrote:More Judgement damage + a couple lucky procs is going to apply more pressure than SoB will either way though, unless SoB is doing more damage than SoC on every swing.

That was my point. It's a chance for higher burst, which is similar to old-style Ret pvp -- waiting for the numbers to line up, and capitalizing when they do.

Except there's no way to capitalize on it when you're assured you won't get SoC procs back to back. You're losing a huge chunk of "burst" on everything except judgment.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Lore » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:03 pm

Is there a mechanic I'm unaware of that ensures SoC won't proc back to back?
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:13 pm

Yes, it has an internal cooldown. Well it did, I haven't really bothered to test for it, but back in the day when you could drop huge reck bombs, it would only ever proc once.

EDIT: It's only like a second though, so you can get it on consecutive auto attacks.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Selgar » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:41 pm

Kelaan wrote:Is the sheep-breaking potential of JoB (or SoB) still a valid counterbalance to the (now) extra damage of SoC/JoC? The judgement of command damage didn't seem substantially higher than JoB -- only ~100?



??

How do you break sheep with JoB? Last I checked you can't judge or attack while sheeped, the only time it would break sheep is if sheep landed in the milisecond between your judge and when it actually lands, which I would think highly unlikely and not a reason to use the seal.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Baelor » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:47 pm

Selgar wrote:
Kelaan wrote:Is the sheep-breaking potential of JoB (or SoB) still a valid counterbalance to the (now) extra damage of SoC/JoC? The judgement of command damage didn't seem substantially higher than JoB -- only ~100?



??

How do you break sheep with JoB? Last I checked you can't judge or attack while sheeped, the only time it would break sheep is if sheep landed in the milisecond between your judge and when it actually lands, which I would think highly unlikely and not a reason to use the seal.

If you judge/attack immediately before the Polymorph is completed, the recoil damage will land immediately after the Polymorph takes effect, popping you out of the CC.

It's because of the server delay when processing the recoil. Most likely unintended, but it's something that an attentive ret paladin with quick reflexes can capitalize on.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Lore » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:21 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Yes, it has an internal cooldown. Well it did, I haven't really bothered to test for it, but back in the day when you could drop huge reck bombs, it would only ever proc once.

EDIT: It's only like a second though, so you can get it on consecutive auto attacks.


Ah. Explains why I've never noticed it, heh.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Elsie » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:16 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Yes, it has an internal cooldown. Well it did, I haven't really bothered to test for it, but back in the day when you could drop huge reck bombs, it would only ever proc once.

EDIT: It's only like a second though, so you can get it on consecutive auto attacks.

An example

0 Judgment
0: Auto-Swing
1.05: Crusader Strike
2.05: Divine Storm
2.8 Auto Attack

That's a possible 3 Seal of Command procs and a definite 4 seal of blood hits. That's also best case scenario for Seal of Command in pvp. Any distance will cause Seal of blood to gain a lot of mileage.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Selgar » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:35 pm

also I believe each Divine Storm hit is considered a seperate hit, so on multiple targets you will get 4 SoB procs and only 1 SoC proc.
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