[Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:49 pm

All of these comparisons about how one class has to take more damage, or has xyz ability to mitigate damage, therefore it makes sense that another class also has these types of mechanics are getting to be a bit much. In PVP especially it's very hard to draw such parallels, because so many other abilities have to factor in. Outside of the zero resilience weeks of the opening wotlk arena season, ret has never been a strong arena spec.

With command being crap, it might just be a bit much that blood does recoil damage, but more likely the problems are worse than that anyhow. Quite awhile ago when SoC was nerfed, GC acknowledged that with a lack of burst, ret may have troubles in arenas because their utility, though great in PVE, doesn't translate all that well to the arenas. That was when he mentioned the protection 11 point talent as being a possible help to them. Anyhow, it seems incredibly unlikely that this recoil damage is needed to keep ret balanced for arenas.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby ZombieRitual » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:21 pm

Lore wrote:Notice anything missing? The 10% recoil from melee swings is missing as listed on MMO-Champion.

It's possible that Boubouille just left it out (he's not exactly known for tooltip accuracy), but it does make a degree of sense for them to remove the seal recoil as part of the "move more damage to the seal and away from the judgement" plan. WTB servers up, pst.


Seal of Blood now makes all your melee attacks deal [ 48% of weapon damage ] (up from 22%) additional Holy damage. Unleashing this Seal's energy instantly causes [ 11% of AP + 18% of Spell Power + 26% of min weapon damage ] to [ 11% of AP + 18% of Spell Power + 26% of max weapon damage ] (Down from 16/25/36%) Holy damage at the cost of health equal to 33% of the damage caused.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby halabar » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:28 pm

But the way that is written, it would imply recoil damage just on the judgement.

We'll see...
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Lore » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:45 pm

ZombieRitual wrote:
Lore wrote:Notice anything missing? The 10% recoil from melee swings is missing as listed on MMO-Champion.

It's possible that Boubouille just left it out (he's not exactly known for tooltip accuracy), but it does make a degree of sense for them to remove the seal recoil as part of the "move more damage to the seal and away from the judgement" plan. WTB servers up, pst.


Seal of Blood now makes all your melee attacks deal [ 48% of weapon damage ] (up from 22%) additional Holy damage. Unleashing this Seal's energy instantly causes [ 11% of AP + 18% of Spell Power + 26% of min weapon damage ] to [ 11% of AP + 18% of Spell Power + 26% of max weapon damage ] (Down from 16/25/36%) Holy damage at the cost of health equal to 33% of the damage caused.


Yes, the Judgement still has self-damage. That's completely not what I was saying at all. Thanks for pointing that out though.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby ZombieRitual » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:23 pm

Or it's 33% recoil on all SoB related damage. Suppose we'll see once the PTR servers come back up.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Lore » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:21 pm

It's not even worded in a way that would imply 33% recoil on all SoB related damage.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Makaijin » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:46 pm

Not exactly ret related, but if these damage buffs does go through, would Blood be a viable seal threat wise, say over Vengence?

Edit: Well the PTR is back up, and unfortunately, the 10% Seal self damage is still there.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby ZombieRitual » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:09 am

Yep, still take recoil every time blood does damage.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Elsie » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:31 am

Tested in PvP Gear (with minor gem differences amounting to +~20 AP, -~0.3 crit difference for live).
Live: 0/10/61
PTR: 11/5/53 (5/5 SotP)

    Seal of Blood
    Live: 336-405
    PTR: 752-907
    Judgment of Blood
    Live: 1329-1441
    PTR: 948-1032

    Seal of Command
    Live: 790-931
    PTR: 808-953
    Judgment of Command
    Live: 1445-1221
    PTR: 1151-1228

    Seal of Righteousness (no glyph)
    Live: 401
    PTR: 397
    Judgment of Righteousness
    Live: 982
    PTR: 977

    Seal of Vengeance
    Live: 575
    PTR: 572
    Judgment of Vengeance
    Live: 684
    PTR: 680

Seal of Blood is dealing more than double damage, and judgment is ~340 lower (which will translate into lower crits and RV).
Seal of Command is barely higher damage per proc than SoB, but much higher judgment (which may mean higher burst).
SotP is not reflected in tooltips.
SoR is effectively 507.205 per hit with the glyph and SotP and 456.55 without the glyph.
-This puts SoR == SoC damage at a 50% proc rate.

Questions:
Why, with nearly the same gear and talents, are the numbers VASTLY different for Seal of Command?
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby ZombieRitual » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:34 am

Should also mention that Seal of the Martyr is currently bugged, and doing the old 22% damage on judgement. Looks like SoB is not bugged; clearly Blizz favors Horde.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Elsie » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:37 am

As a test, I respec'd into 11/5/53 on the PTR again.

My numbers changed for SoB to 731-881, JoB 936-1018.
edit: confirmed difference. 731-881 is the correct comparison value (the higher number was with Retribution Aura).
edit2: lawl, found a bug with Sanctified Retribution. It only works if you go into Ret aura at least once.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Lore » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:16 am

Yeah Seal and Judgement numbers on Blood/Martyr are bugged to hell at the moment. As I understand it, Alliance got Judgement nerf but no Seal buff, Horde got Seal buff but no Judgement nerf. Lul.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Makaijin » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:22 am

Bugged or not, Seal of Command is getting sidelined, rather badly so.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Elsie » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:23 am

Lore wrote:Yeah Seal and Judgement numbers on Blood/Martyr are bugged to hell at the moment. As I understand it, Alliance got Judgement nerf but no Seal buff, Horde got Seal buff but no Judgement nerf. Lul.

I see no problems.
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Lore » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:27 am

Makaijin wrote:Bugged or not, Seal of Command is getting sidelined, rather badly so.


SoC is actually superior burst in PVP now (JoC is beating JoB). In PVE though, SoR is better.
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