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[Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Postby Elsie » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:37 am

Yeah. I posted in the thread and so did several others.

I'm not sure how 10k damage, his value, is chump change given the time value of healing and the possibility of chain hits. This also ignores the smaller additions from regular swings inbetween (though they may be subsumed by JoL / Blood Aura / VE).

The only real way I wouldn't mind the reactive damage is if instant FoL didn't refresh the swing speed and the damage triggered Sacred Shield. If they insist on keeping it, that's the only way I can imagine so you can offset your damage intake (which still is complete fail on the Jotw debuff boss).
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Re: [Ret] Blues understanding of SoB recoil unsatisfactory

Postby Baelor » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:50 am

Majiben wrote:
Player wrote:Can this not be likened to Ret paladins killing themselves to do relatively lower dps? (because they are a hybrid)

GhostCrawler wrote:The fires typically do a lot more damage than Seal of Blood. What is the most you have ever been bled for on a Judgement crit? Maybe 10K? And that’s a crit. No offense, but your healers probably laugh at the kind of damage you are inflicting on yourself. The tank is getting hit for much more, much faster and the fires or big AE sprays generally do more. A stray PoM or CL can probably top you off. I know you don’t want to use Command, but if you’re sitting at 10% of your health or you know the dragon is about to breathe, it may be an attractive option until you get healed back up again. I know the self-damage is a concern of the paladins though, and we’ll keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn’t feel like too much of a liability in raids.
Disturbing news from the Blues. Link in the text.

What GC said is, to put it in a sort of childish manner, "stop hitting yourself." He's asking for common sense to be utilized when judging.

I personally don't agree with his sentiment and have always thought the recoil damage mechanic to be burdensome, especially with the size of Judgement damage in WotLK, but hey, he's the dev.

If I do lose SA and the recoil damage is still attached to SoB, I'm going to look into how much DPS I'd lose in switching to SoComm w/ glyph. I dislike killing myself, and the mana benefit of SoB would be gone.
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Postby ZombieRitual » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:07 am

With the slimming down of the Ret tree it seems like using Seal of Righteousness in combination with the glyph and seals of the pure might be a viable option.
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Postby majiben » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:11 am

The issue is multi-fold. Delaying judgements hurts our current dps, our rotation and future mana regen as we get less mana back. I find it insulting that he thinks healers laugh at the damage ret takes. If it's pittance then running 15 rets in a 25 man shouldn't require an extra healer or two.

It's also silly to expect dps to evaluate whether or not to use their primary attacks in a split second. We come close to hardwiring our actions while dpsing in order to do the best dps we can.

Also you should look into using SoR before SoC. Looks like the glyph + SotP makes it very competitive.
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Postby Baelor » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:18 am

Hmmm, SoR...

That'd be old school, fo' rizzle.

I might just try that if things go live how they are.
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Postby Kelaan » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:59 am

Wait, SoR with a 2H? What's the point of Command, then? ::boggle::
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Postby Dorvan » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:59 am

That's pretty disappointing. I mean, unless Blizzard intends to have 0 challenging raid damage in Ulduar (and that doesn't appear to be the case), and challenging AoE + a Judgment spike is going to equal dead Ret Pally. I hope they come around on this because it's really a dealbreaker for Ret. If not, SoR is looking like a rather realistic option atm.
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Postby majorwoo » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:08 am

I think you meant SoC, not SoR.

Now I don't ever play ret but when I did I coulda swore i had GCD's to spare waiting on abilities to come back up. Maybe your supposed to use your instant FOL or switch seals in some cases? GC flat out said in his post maybe SoC is an option when your low waiting on a heal?
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Postby Dorvan » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:15 am

No, I meant SoR. On the PTR right now SoR + SoR glyph and SotP is almost as good as SoB + Exorcism glyph.
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Postby majiben » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:17 am

It's really bull to say that we are intended to swap seals mid fight when it's expensive both in mana consumption and GCDs. FoL is not viable either as it resets the swing timer and our free GCDs occur less frequently than our judgements.
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Postby Baelor » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:20 am

majorwoo wrote:I think you meant SoC, not SoR.

Now I don't ever play ret but when I did I coulda swore i had GCD's to spare waiting on abilities to come back up. Maybe your supposed to use your instant FOL or switch seals in some cases? GC flat out said in his post maybe SoC is an option when your low waiting on a heal?

Nope, meant Seal of Righteousness

Here are the 3 options that are currently on the block:

Use Seal of Blood and micromanage your own HP, holding back Judgement if you're low and possibly using mana to heal yourself.

Use Seal of Command + SoComm glyph (increased proc chance) and hope the gods of RNG are on your side.

Use Seal of Righteousness + SoR glyph (increased JoR damage) + Seals of the Pure talent and accept relatively lower damage for higher degrees of safety.
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Postby Elsie » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:26 am

Use Seal of Righteousness + SoR glyph (increased JoR damage) + Seals of the Pure talent and accept relatively lower damage for higher degrees of safety.

It's not even to a degree I'd call "relatively lower." It's maximally 40 dps assuming no lag, a tank and spot boss, and a perfect rotation. It also incredibly devalues crit (not that it was super hot before) and expertise (since SoR isn't a unique attack). It comes out higher if you ever have to delay Seal of Blood.

Seal of Blood and Seal of Righteousness are both better than Seal of Command. Seal of Command has a 1s cooldown built into it still. The RNG gods will never be on your side because they get blocked by Seinfield reruns. Even without that, it deals less damage than SoB, and SoB only beats SoR because of the freed glyph slot.
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Postby majorwoo » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:27 am

perhaps if a crit SOB judge only took health as if it was not a crit it would be ok?
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Postby Elsie » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:29 am

majorwoo wrote:perhaps if a crit SOB judge only took health as if it was not a crit it would be ok?

No. You're still looking at ~3000 self inflicted damage. More in Ulduar.
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