[Ret-PvE] Enchant Boots: Icewalker vs. Greater Assault

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Postby Panzerdin » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:19 pm

Hey, I'm just going by what the spreadsheets say.
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Postby Fedaykin98 » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:21 pm

Dorvan wrote:Huh? Hit is our second best threat stat until 8%...why would it be unexpected that the optimal gear set may hit 8% from gear alone in Ulduar?


Threat stat?

I've got Icewalker because it's nice and cheap, and I don't have the Maly-25 boots yet. I'm well under the Hit cap, because I've been following Baelor's (and others') recommendation to maximize STR over Hit. I do this because it seems to be what smarter Paladins are saying, and following Baelor's FAQ has done very well by me. I'm easily one of my guild's top DPSers. Some people do tell me I should get more Hit and Expertise, but I'm somewhat of the mind that if it isn't broke, why fix it? If I ran with a consistently better Ret pally, I'd ask him for advice, but I have not run with any. I visit other guild's raids and do awesome there, too.

I have picked the brains of some other high DPS paladins in my guild, and some of them like Hit and use a different attack priority, but in general I'm waiting to be shown a better way by someone with better results than I'm getting - if and when I find him.

Is there a general consensus here that Redcape's > Rawr, btw? I use Rawr for all my gear decisions.
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Re: [Ret-PvE] Enchant Boots: Icewalker vs. Greater Assault

Postby Elsie » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:28 pm

Dorvan wrote:
Baelor wrote:Assuming you're below the hit cap and that Icewalker would not push you over, which enchant would you go for on your boots?

Enchant Boots: Icewalker - 12 crit rating, 12 hit rating
Enchant Boots: Greater Assault - 32 AP


It depends. At lower gear levels, AP wins out. As your gear level increases, icewalker gains power relative to 32 AP. At high enough gear levels, icwalker wins out. Last I checked via Redcape, I was at a point where it's pretty much a wash.

Icewalker would still be better at lower gear levels since hit is more important for continued dps. You don't have the raw damage to keep your mana up by killing yourself yet, nor 4pc.
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Re: [Ret-PvE] Enchant Boots: Icewalker vs. Greater Assault

Postby Dorvan » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:30 pm

Elsie wrote:Icewalker would still be better at lower gear levels since hit is more important for continued dps. You don't have the raw damage to keep your mana up by killing yourself yet, nor 4pc.


Do you have math to show the regen gain from 12 hit, and that that outwiegh that superior damage of 32 AP? It certainly seems a reasonable line of thought, but it's not clear a priori whether or not it makes enough difference to come out ahead.

Is there a general consensus here that Redcape's > Rawr, btw? I use Rawr for all my gear decisions.


I like Redcape's personally because I can easily look under the hood, but I don't think there's any consensus that one is more accurate than the other. There *is*, on the other hand, wide consensus that gemming for hit/expertise is bad. Oh, and by threat stat I mean DPS stat of course....jumping back and forth between Ret and Prot addles my brain :P
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Postby Elsie » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:11 pm

Do you have math to show the regen gain from 12 hit, and that that outwiegh that superior damage of 32 AP? It certainly seems a reasonable line of thought, but it's not clear a priori whether or not it makes enough difference to come out ahead.

I'm going based off intuition, but hitting 1 judgment is 15% mana pool and self-damage, where as 32 AP's mana return only applies to self-damage that hit applies to as well (and crit for that matter).

Actually, this isn't so rough. 32 AP is worth 32/14*wpn spd (assuming 3.4 here) or 7.8 weapon damage. Seal of Blood deals 27% weapon damage and 10% self-inflicted, so 7.8*0.27*0.1 = 2 damage per seal of blood hit.

Seal of blood adds 0.16*AP to damage, so 32*0.16*1.1*0.33 = 1.85856 damage.

So 32 AP is worth ~0.4 mana per hit/judge before talents (and being generous).

Judgment is 15% base mana, or 864.6 mana. 12 hit rating is 0.366% chance to hit. So 864.6*0.00366 = 3.16 more mana on average from judgment. I don't really want to work out average gains from more seal of blood benefits but it doesn't look in 32 AP's favor.

In general hit will be better for mana regen for a long time due to JotW.
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Postby Dorvan » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:21 pm

Oh, I don't doubt that the hit provides slightly more mana than the AP....I was questioning whether the mana difference would be enough to make icewalker better for one's overall dps.
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Postby fafhrd » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:58 pm

I'm not trying to be snarky, sincerely curious, since there's both a spreadsheet and rawr, can't they answer these questions? Rawr at least has been out for a good while, so I'd think it could work out simple things like icewalker vs 32 ap on a straight up DPS fight. Have they just not been developed that much, or do you not trust their results?
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Postby Dorvan » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:10 pm

fafhrd wrote:I'm not trying to be snarky, sincerely curious, since there's both a spreadsheet and rawr, can't they answer these questions? Rawr at least has been out for a good while, so I'd think it could work out simple things like icewalker vs 32 ap on a straight up DPS fight. Have they just not been developed that much, or do you not trust their results?


As was discussed earlier, the result in this case depends on your current gear. Elsie's also asserting that the mana difference is a non-negligible factor, and I don't believe either model captures mana mechanics.
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Postby Questioner » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:16 am

This is a good topic! It was one I messed with quite a bit in my max dps set spreadsheet testing. It was, in fact, close to a wash, with icewalker ahead by maybe 2 dps at best. I then chose icewalker over ap for consistency purposes.

I think Dorvan described it the best though. As AP levels get higher, the increase from hit stays proportionally the same (x%), while the increase from +ap gets proportionally less.

Once you pass the threshold (which I don't know the exact dps mark), it looks like this: Icewalker until it crosses the hit cap, then switch to +32ap.
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Postby fafhrd » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:12 am

Dorvan wrote:As was discussed earlier, the result in this case depends on your current gear. Elsie's also asserting that the mana difference is a non-negligible factor, and I don't believe either model captures mana mechanics.


Yes, but doesn't depending on gear increase the desirability of using a spreadsheet/sim to answer the question (I assume that spreadsheet/rawr let you specify what gear to use)? There's no correct answer for everyone in that case, so you'd have to math it out for a specific set/playstyle -> spreadsheet instead of forum math.

If someone asked the same about hunters, we'd just link them to The Spreadsheet since we can't give a better answer to for the general case of ItemX vs ItemY. Ours does model mana/focus consumption/regen though, so I understand the thread better if yours doesn't, thanks.

Is ret pally mana regen particularly hard to model for some reason, or have the model authors just not gotten around to it? I though it was a the usual regen buffs/debuffs, + JotW + a function of effective healing received. That sounds like something that would need to be part of a model for it to be useful, unless you always have unlimited mana.
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Postby arilink » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:09 am

You might want to take into account for further consideration that having shadowpriests and/or feral druids in your raid provides an additional +3% hit.
So most likely on bosses only 6% hit are required.
Personally I got ~6.55% hit in ret gear atm and the last parse while being ret shows 0% miss overall.
Of course you would have to investigate for yourself what the uptime of that 3% hit buff is in your raid and how it will turn out in Ulduar.
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Postby Questioner » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:20 am

arilink wrote:You might want to take into account for further consideration that having shadowpriests and/or feral druids in your raid provides an additional +3% hit.
So most likely on bosses only 6% hit are required.
Personally I got ~6.55% hit in ret gear atm and the last parse while being ret shows 0% miss overall.
Of course you would have to investigate for yourself what the uptime of that 3% hit buff is in your raid and how it will turn out in Ulduar.


This is wrong. Firstly, those buffs are spell hit only. Secondly, IFF is balance, not feral. Thirdly, the 2H melee hit cap is 8%.
Last edited by Questioner on Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:23 am

fafhrd wrote:Is ret pally mana regen particularly hard to model for some reason, or have the model authors just not gotten around to it? I though it was a the usual regen buffs/debuffs, + JotW + a function of effective healing received. That sounds like something that would need to be part of a model for it to be useful, unless you always have unlimited mana.


Basically it's really easy to get to the point of unlimited mana, which is why it hasn't really been modelled....you reach that point at late heroics/early 10 man raiding. I don't even use Divine Plea on most fights anymore.
Last edited by Dorvan on Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Baelor » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:24 am

Questioner wrote:
arilink wrote:You might want to take into account for further consideration that having shadowpriests and/or feral druids in your raid provides an additional +3% hit.
So most likely on bosses only 6% hit are required.
Personally I got ~6.55% hit in ret gear atm and the last parse while being ret shows 0% miss overall.
Of course you would have to investigate for yourself what the uptime of that 3% hit buff is in your raid and how it will turn out in Ulduar.


This is wrong. Firstly, those buffs are spell hit only. Secondly, the 2H melee hit cap is 8%.

As Questioner said, Misery and Improved Faerie Fire are both spell-hit only.

The only hit buff that affects physical DPS is the Draenei aura, Heroic/Inspiring Presence. So, if you're an Alliance player and have Draenei in your raid, you can assume a hit cap of 7%. All others assume hit cap of 8%.
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Postby arilink » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:25 am

Oh noes, I am totally messing up stuff atm as it seems :oops:
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