[Holy] Consolidated comments on Holy changes for 3.1

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Baelor

Postby Splug » Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:57 am

In pvp, sacred shield is an amazing ability. It's not diminished by healing effects since it's an absorb. Fully absorbed hits also do not trigger "on attack" abilities, such as furious assault. Also, the absorb shield and the base spell are unique entities, and can be dispelled independently of each other. Thus, sacred shield can eat an entire purge by itself, or the trigger spell can get purged without eating the active shield (meaning it potentially can be reapplied before the absorb even gets used or comes off cooldown). Especially against vengeance specs, this can make getting rid of blessings very difficult.

It's not an auto-win button by any means, but it is extremely strong, and costs less mana than a single holy light. Given the similarities between it and earth shield, I can understand adding the single target limitation to it.

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Postby Elsie » Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:26 am

It's not an auto-win button by any means, but it is extremely strong, and costs less mana than a single holy light. Given the similarities between it and earth shield, I can understand adding the single target limitation to it.

The problem with saying it is similar to earth shield is the abilities do not exist in a vacuum. Otherwise I'd be fine with the statement if paladins had riptide.

Paladins would be cool with an aoe heal that had a target radius like Mass Dispel or Death coil.
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Postby Mozen » Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:13 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Majiben wrote:I don't like that they don't care about holy's group healing ability especially for 10 mans.

Yeah, that's the glaring issue for me too. If their group heal was mitigating too much damage, that's one thing. Removing the mechanic entirely because they "shouldn't need" it is something completely different.


It's like the warlock soul shards. Absolutely meaningless irritation to game play that they just insist on keeping.

I'm most worried about the judgement range, though. So now we're supposed to be standing with the melee group when we heal. This means we're going to have to do a lot of movement, which minimizes our healing throughput like nothing else. Then they take out the cast time reduction on Holy Light, and say we have fast heals.

EDIT: Wrong here, only Justice range affected, we can still judge Light and Wisdom at range. My mistake.

Do they really have a plan for paladin healing, or are we going to end up as the Patchwerk of healing classes?

There must be someone intentionally sabotaging paladin design there at Blizzard. You know, like group heals, like T7 shoulders, like T8 helm... :wink:
Last edited by Mozen on Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Elsie » Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:15 am

There must be someone intentionally sabotaging paladin design there at Blizzard. You know, like group heals, like T7 shoulders, like T8 helm...

I'm convinced it's
1. Buff ret
2. Nerf ret into the ground
3. Leave holy better than average
4. Nerf holy to indirectly nerf ret
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Postby Zironic » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:39 am

I'm not particularly sure what makes it acceptable for two holy priests, two shamans, or two druids to heal a 10-man fine but for two paladins to struggle with most of it (or approach impossible).


Right now it's possible for two skilled holydins to heal all 10 mans, post 3.1 though, they'd have to be godlike or have insane luck.

I wonder if they're aware they're nerfing IoL, Glyph of HL and SS the same bloody patch.
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Postby Panzerdin » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:42 am

In my experience, the devs have a good knowledge of what they're doing, but a poor understanding of the consequences.
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Postby Grimmal » Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:32 am

So much for my tempting the gods and gearing up my Paladin as Holy again. What is already the most skilled required healer is now getting a gaping gut wound. Makes complete sense somehow I'm sure...

I wish they would just quite trying to make Holy so 'unqiue' and just give the class the same tools that other healers have. I have no plans on going back to Holy fulltime as I've found I much prefer Shaman healing. But seriously, enough is enough. Toss them a group heal, toss them a HoT, and level out single target heals of the other classes to make them somewhat closer.

Honestly, if they are so gungho to really bring the player why not? It'd be a much better option than what they have going atm imo.
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Postby Zironic » Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:55 am

Grimmal wrote:So much for my tempting the gods and gearing up my Paladin as Holy again. What is already the most skilled required healer is now getting a gaping gut wound. Makes complete sense somehow I'm sure...

I wish they would just quite trying to make Holy so 'unqiue' and just give the class the same tools that other healers have. I have no plans on going back to Holy fulltime as I've found I much prefer Shaman healing. But seriously, enough is enough. Toss them a group heal, toss them a HoT, and level out single target heals of the other classes to make them somewhat closer.

Honestly, if they are so gungho to really bring the player why not? It'd be a much better option than what they have going atm imo.


Personally I have no problem being unique, the current 3.0.8 paladin is unique and can heal through most content fairly well.

The 3.1 paladin is unique and gimped and won't be able to function properly outside 25 mans and even in 25 mans it'll be boring as hell.
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Postby Joanadark » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:29 am

no one has even mentioned one of the bigger nerfs to holy:

Glyph of Holy Light heals can no longer crit.


The biggest power of the glyph splash was self-amplification. When your crit level reached a high enough level, you could pump out rediculous AOE splash because the Holy Light would crit and be increased by +%healing effects, the glyph would copy 10% of that big number, and then crit again on it's own and be again multiplied by the same +%healing effects applied to the initial Holy Light.

With the crit levels we were reaching, double crit amplification was a common and relliable thing, and I've seen some glyph splash crits of as much as 5k healing+.
It was almost getting to the point where in situations of huge raid AOE damage such as on sarth 3d or PTR Iron council, glyph splash was outhealing Wild Growth in AOE healing if a paladin just bombed low people with HLs.
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Postby Zironic » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:37 am

Joanadark wrote:no one has even mentioned one of the bigger nerfs to holy:

Glyph of Holy Light heals can no longer crit.


The biggest power of the glyph splash was self-amplification. When your crit level reached a high enough level, you could pump out rediculous AOE splash because the Holy Light would crit and be increased by +%healing effects, the glyph would copy 10% of that big number, and then crit again on it's own and be again multiplied by the same +%healing effects applied to the initial Holy Light.

With the crit levels we were reaching, double crit amplification was a common and relliable thing, and I've seen some glyph splash crits of as much as 5k healing+.
It was almost getting to the point where in situations of huge raid AOE damage such as on sarth 3d or PTR Iron council, glyph splash was outhealing Wild Growth in AOE healing if a paladin just bombed low people with HLs.


Effectively this means that Glyph of HL will heal for 20% less.( with 50% crit which is about what a 25 man geared paladin will have).

I wonder when they'll get around to nerfing illumination so we're forced to only use flash of light.
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Postby Panzerdin » Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:40 am

I find it deeply ironical that Blizzard is currently forcing Paladins to spec OUT of Holy.
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Postby Zironic » Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:42 am

Sheath of Light spec is looking sexier then ever :P(except when it was lower in the ret tree)
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:50 am

Splug wrote:In pvp, sacred shield is an amazing ability. It's not diminished by healing effects since it's an absorb. Fully absorbed hits also do not trigger "on attack" abilities, such as furious assault. Also, the absorb shield and the base spell are unique entities, and can be dispelled independently of each other. Thus, sacred shield can eat an entire purge by itself, or the trigger spell can get purged without eating the active shield (meaning it potentially can be reapplied before the absorb even gets used or comes off cooldown). Especially against vengeance specs, this can make getting rid of blessings very difficult.

It's not an auto-win button by any means, but it is extremely strong, and costs less mana than a single holy light. Given the similarities between it and earth shield, I can understand adding the single target limitation to it.

-Splug


Well eating the purge isn't without consequence, it gets rid of the current shield. The shield mechanics are shield mechanics, a disc priest can provide them too. If Sacred Shield is mitigating too much damage then fine, lower it. Allowing it to be only on one target fundamentally changes the spell and removes an entire mechanic from pallys. Besides, Sacred Shield has been buffed so in 2s and 3s it'll probably mitigate more than before.
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Postby Panzerdin » Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:08 am

It's Blizzard trying to fix a problem, failing spectacularly, and catching something else in the crossfire. It clearly isn't intended to screw Paladin healers in anything smaller than a 25-man, even though it's going to.
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Postby Zironic » Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:26 am

Panzerdin wrote:It's Blizzard trying to fix a problem, failing spectacularly, and catching something else in the crossfire. It clearly isn't intended to screw Paladin healers in anything smaller than a 25-man, even though it's going to.


Indeed, I can see the motivation for each of the changes they've done but the end result is just making paladins gimped in sub 25-man content and even in 25 man content there will be no fun left.

I don't think anyone signed up for mindless holy light spam on the MT.
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