[Ret-PvE] Gear

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Postby majiben » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:36 am

Candiru wrote:What is important for ret in a weapon are:

1) Weapon speed
2) Weapon DPS.

The "average damage" simply gives you an indication that these other 2 important variables are high, but is itself not necessarily important.

Sword of justice
has 3.8s, and 169.2 DPS.
=643 average damage

Titansteel Bonecrusher
has 3.4s and 186.5 DPS.
=634 average damage

Now, the titantseel bonecrusher also has better stats since its a higher item budget item. But, if we ignore those for now and just look at the DPS/ WS/ average damage:

Sword of justice has better speed, but worse DPS. Average damage is about the same on both.

However, since Ret DPS scales with WS much more than DPS the sword of justice is better, even if you include the lower stats on the weapon.

This is because the weapon speed essentially multiplies your AP on your character sheet to increase your JoB and CS->SoB and DS->SoB hits.

The higher base DPS is equivalent to just adding some more +AP on the weapon, and so only scales with your crit/haste/etc but NOT with your AP.

Since ret paladins have a lot of AP, it works out that weapon speed is much much more important than weapon DPS, or average hit size.

If we were just talking about CS and DS damage on their own, not including the SoB proc, then it WOULD be just the "top-end" or average damage of the weapon to consider.

But, because SoB procs off CS and DS, and judgement is non-normalised ret scales highly with weapon speed.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there a weapons normalization that made any weapon with a speed greater than 3.5 treated as if it was 3.5?
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Postby katraya » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:37 am

Thanks so much!

I have played around with Rawr but I'll check out the other spreadsheet. I wasn't sure if Rawr factored in set bonuses.

I'm actually still at 6k from exhalted for the KotEB boots but I've been working towards it.

The ring....yeah I hear you trust me. I have seen Ruthlessness drop 6 times, I have seen it go to someone else each time. :? We use loot council and I am a back up raider rather than a main raider so I have access to the items, just have to be patient to get them.

I had several goes at Nexus with no luck and gave up when I got my current belt. I'll see if I have any better luck this time around.

I have about 35 badges right now. After Naxx tomorrow night I'll probably pick up either the ring or boots depending on how my drop luck goes.
Last edited by katraya on Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Selinaria » Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:08 pm

Majiben wrote:
Candiru wrote:What is important for ret in a weapon are:

1) Weapon speed
2) Weapon DPS.

The "average damage" simply gives you an indication that these other 2 important variables are high, but is itself not necessarily important.

Sword of justice
has 3.8s, and 169.2 DPS.
=643 average damage

Titansteel Bonecrusher
has 3.4s and 186.5 DPS.
=634 average damage

Now, the titantseel bonecrusher also has better stats since its a higher item budget item. But, if we ignore those for now and just look at the DPS/ WS/ average damage:

Sword of justice has better speed, but worse DPS. Average damage is about the same on both.

However, since Ret DPS scales with WS much more than DPS the sword of justice is better, even if you include the lower stats on the weapon.

This is because the weapon speed essentially multiplies your AP on your character sheet to increase your JoB and CS->SoB and DS->SoB hits.

The higher base DPS is equivalent to just adding some more +AP on the weapon, and so only scales with your crit/haste/etc but NOT with your AP.

Since ret paladins have a lot of AP, it works out that weapon speed is much much more important than weapon DPS, or average hit size.

If we were just talking about CS and DS damage on their own, not including the SoB proc, then it WOULD be just the "top-end" or average damage of the weapon to consider.

But, because SoB procs off CS and DS, and judgement is non-normalised ret scales highly with weapon speed.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there a weapons normalization that made any weapon with a speed greater than 3.5 treated as if it was 3.5?


IIRC, Maji is correct. Weapon speed and damage only helps base damage. Everything is normalized around the following:

From http://www.wowwiki.com/Normalization

Currently, the normalized weapon damage for instant attacks is:
normalized_damage = base_weapon_damage + (X * Attack Power / 14)

where X is:

* 1.7 for daggers
* 2.4 for other one-handed weapons
* 3.3 for two-handed weapons
* 2.8 for ranged weapons

Also info about non-normalized attacks but generally those fall under abilities that have no reliance on weapon damage like bloodthirst and eviscerate.

That wiki article is a bit dated but remains true since 1.8.


IE: 300-300 range and 150-150 range with different speeds but same weapon dps will receive the same contribution from AP, however, all instant attacks with first weapon will still hit for 150 points more damage every time (before armor and all that jazz).

Slower weapons are better but only if other factors are accounted for. All the best ret weapons are overall too quick to be ideal but atm, it is all we have. Were there 2 versions of betrayer of humanity, we would prefer a 3.9 speed to the 3.4 speed available.

So basically, slower is better unless you have no choice, such as right now BUT not by a huge margin.

From the paladin perspective, DS, CS and SoB procs all come from hit size and scale appropriately with weapon dps and damage. CS and DS act as normalized attacks while SoB procs are simply a % of damage done thus more damage of any sort whether from higher AP or higher WD/DPS is better.

JoB works off of the following rule: unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy, instantly causing [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 45% of mw ] to [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 45% of MW ] Holy damage at the cost of health equal to 33% of the damage caused. Thus scaling well with all ret stats.

Consecrate, exorcism and holy wrath are purely modified by AP/SP and have no reliance on WD, thus are not-normalized.
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Postby Shoju » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:41 pm

Baelor wrote:
Run some heroic Nexus in your spare time and get a Flame-bathed Steel Girdle (the epic belt from Keristrasza, name could be inaccurate).



Just a question: Why?

This Belt is SO MUCH better. Is it a reluctance to wear a lesser grade of armor? My gear list puts only the Girdle if Chivalry and Girdle of Razuvious above it, and Jorach's is SO EASY to get.

You actually end up with more Crit unbuffed or buffed from Jorach's a little less AP, but you gain expertise. Sure, the AP doesn't get buffed from kings where the strength will, but it seems to me that Jorach's is a little more balanced stat wise. Maybe I prefer it because I'm already hit capped and would like now to reach expertise capped as well.
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Postby Baelor » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:05 pm

Shoju wrote:
Baelor wrote:
Run some heroic Nexus in your spare time and get a Flame-bathed Steel Girdle (the epic belt from Keristrasza, name could be inaccurate).



Just a question: Why?

This Belt is SO MUCH better. Is it a reluctance to wear a lesser grade of armor? My gear list puts only the Girdle if Chivalry and Girdle of Razuvious above it, and Jorach's is SO EASY to get.

You actually end up with more Crit unbuffed or buffed from Jorach's a little less AP, but you gain expertise. Sure, the AP doesn't get buffed from kings where the strength will, but it seems to me that Jorach's is a little more balanced stat wise. Maybe I prefer it because I'm already hit capped and would like now to reach expertise capped as well.

It's one part zealotry about stacking strength, one part reluctance to downgrade armor class, and a whole lot of me not caring much about expertise because Judgement is the real DPS driver.

EDIT: But yea, Jorach's is probably better. I just don't recommend things that aren't plate, as a personal policy.
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Postby Kelaan » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:12 pm

Moreover, the plate belt doesn't cost badges, which means you can spend the badges on something else. Buying the leather one later might not be a bad idea, though.
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Postby fafhrd » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:15 pm

Conversation in rogue chat last night when Malygos dropped leather gloves (BiS for rogues, hunters, fury warriors and probably the other physical DPS classes too):

Rogue1: you have any particular set/spec in mind for that?
Rogue2: not really, but f#$@ the hunters
Me: :O :X

[Rogue1 wins gloves for less than the hunters bid]
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Postby Ana » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:16 pm

I'm going to agree, if I wanted to wear leather and dps, i'd have rolled a rogue.
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Postby Selinaria » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:23 pm

Plate DPS gear is in general just fine although there are some instances of leather being preferable.

Just wish that plate was itemized like leather, tired of seeing so much stam on a piece of gear that I am using in a role where I am minimizing damage taken. Also WTB more than 3 dps stats on plate for better use of item value. Albeit having a large chunk of the item value sunk into strength is of course, very nice.

Cause as ret I so want more stam on my belt than prot.... (or any piece)

Fleshless vs. Flame-Bathed for example.
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Postby halabar » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:31 pm

fafhrd wrote:Conversation in rogue chat last night when Malygos dropped leather gloves (BiS for rogues, hunters, fury warriors and probably the other physical DPS classes too):

Rogue1: you have any particular set/spec in mind for that?
Rogue2: not really, but f#$@ the hunters
Me: :O :X

[Rogue1 wins gloves for less than the hunters bid]


grrr...

reminds me of one of the raid leaders in my guild.. I was asked to tank the evening's portion of Nax10, and he announced he would be coming in for one boss only so he could roll on the sword (we are both still using RSoC) so I told the other RL forget that, the other guy could tank everything and I logged. Got a half-hearted apology a few days later from the guy.
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Postby Shoju » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:10 pm

I personally short of tier pieces (because I personally love the t7 bonus) don't care if my dps gear is cloth if it has the stats for me. I play a ret paladin because I like the style of DPS on a ret paladin. If I'm doing my job and the tank and healers are doing there job, I would DPS naked if it meant that I was getting the numbers needed.
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Postby Ipegot » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:52 pm

Nothing wrong with wearing some leather, jorach's is really good. some people just cant get past wearing plate even if a leather piece will give them more dps.

personally i wanna get my hands on belt of the tortured and dawnwalkers. they are so good <.<
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Postby Shoju » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:18 am

I purposely haven't edited my avatar since getting the t7 shoulders. they are fugly.


But rest assured, with my blood knight tabard covering my bare belly I will have all kinds of pics of t8. I love the shoulders + legs + hands of that set.
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Postby Nightsbane » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:24 am

maybe i missed it on this thread so far but is there a site that has a gear ranking list from heroics - Naxx25? I see that retpaladin has a best in slot but i was hoping for something a little more comprehensive.

Thanks


(kind of like the tanking gear lists here)
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Postby katraya » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:49 am

I have what may be a dumb question regarding food buffs. I generally use Dragonfin Filet for both tanking and ret. My guild is stockpiling Fish Feasts for Ulduar and someone usually drops one in raids now.

Am I better off eating the feast with everyone else or should I stick with the strength food? I'd definitely stick with the strength for tanking, but this is regarding ret. I didn't know if the spellpower on the food made up for the loss of strength multipliers since the food has straight AP on it. My guess is that the Dragonfin is still better but I needed a second opinion.
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