[Ret-PvE] Gear

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Postby Ana » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:22 am

Dorvan wrote:The chestpiece from H DTK ( http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37722 ) is ridiculously over budget...it'd be better that 10 man T7 if it weren't for set bonuses.

As far as guaranteed options, http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41189 is a decent craftable chest if you happen to be an armorsmith, and the quest reward http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43209 is an upgrade over what you've got.


I'm more of a fan of the chest from heroic Old Kingdom
( http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37612 ) , but then I am over the hit cap as is after picking up the legs from Ingvar in Heroic UK.

p.s. we really should establish a ret section in the gear forum. I do end up playing my ret palli way more than the tank, despite the fact that the GM won't let me raid ret yet.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:45 am

Baelor wrote:Because of the Relentless meta gem which you should be using, your crit damage is amplified. If you have bigger crits, you get more mileage out of the meta. Damage is going to be slightly higher with a higher top-end weapon if the DPS value is constant.

@Zironic
Read the above. That's why I would choose a higher top-end weapon over a small variance damage range with DPS values equal.


FWIW, that doesn't make any difference. A multiplicative effect will average out the same either way, .01*average damage*1.03 + .99*average damage*1.03 = .5*average damage*1.03 + .5*average damage*1.03

Blizzards seems to have standardized damage ranges in WotLK, but it hasn't always been the case that ranking by average damage is strictly the same as ranking by top end damage (e.g. http://www.wowhead.com/?item=31299 vs http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34673). That's why I prefer to cite the factor that's actually driving the gear selection (average damage).

@Candiru: Unfortunately, your specific example is incorrect. At least at my gear level, the Bonecrusher is better than the Sword of Justice. The only ilevel 200 epic beaten by the Sword of justice is the Skull-Clad Cleaver.

@Ana: As long as you can use at least 10 of the hit rating, the DTK chest is better. Of course, the exact relationship is going to be dependent of your current gear, but the Breastplate of Undeath is just inherently really good for Ret.
Last edited by Dorvan on Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Elsie » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:55 am

@Candiru: Unfortunately, your specific example is incorrect. At least at my gear level, the Bonecrusher is better than the Sword of Justice. The only ilevel 200 epic beaten by the Sword of justice is the Skull-Clad Cleaver.

Only if you need the hit (which you may). I've never had a use for the crafted mace since I've never needed the hit (which would make it worse than Skull-Clad).
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:01 am

Oh I know, the same can be said for any piece with hit on it of course. For me, you'd only have to be able to use 15 of the hit for it to pass the Sword of Justice. Once you get a few tier pieces though you generally have some flexibility in where you're getting your hit from.\

That's why the best rule of thumb for gear selection is really "check Rawr/spreadsheet" :P
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Postby Shoju » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:07 am

I'm a full time ret paladin. My question is for those who discount 4 pc t7 (10 man)

Why does no one want the 4pc bonus from 10 man? I'm looking at the numbers, and it would seem that 1 second off judgement is a big deal at any gearing level? Consider a fight that is 180 seconds (3 minute patchwerk). With 8 second judges, you will get 22 judgements. with 7 second judges, you will get 25. 3 extra judgements is a big deal. My average SoB Judge in raid in around 4500, and I have crit as high as 10600 while under all Cooldowns. Even at average that's 75 dps more right?

I don't have nor do I need the Leggings from H:UK. The hit rating is wasted on me as I'm already over cap. Here's my current numbers:

3139 AP
266 Hit rating
32.27% Crit Chance
13 Expertise

Armory is my sig, We are only doing 10 man content + 25 sarth + 0 currently. We have successfully dropped sarth + 1 (10 man) twice now.

Looking at my gear, only see 5 upgrades including pants that are available to me.

1.) BoE Cape from H: Gundrak. It's never on the AH, and it's not a heroic that I frequent.
2.) Legs.
3.) Loatheb's Shadow/DMC:Greatness would be an upgrade over the Meteorite Whetstone
4.) Surge Needle Ring (I hate my luck on that ring. 2 times I have seen it, 2 times I have lost the ring due to my EP value
5.) Saph ring (have never seen the ring drop.


Why would I not want to get 4pc t7? Sure, Belabored Legplates would be infinitely better for me, but I don't think that we will be on Sarth + 2 for a while, and I don't see the Staggering Legplates as much of an upgrade as I will pick up 80 hit (worthless at this point) and 9 strength while losing 36 crit and 64 haste (near worthless it seems).

So someone, explain to me why 4pc t7 is bad? Is it the gloves? I can't see the rusted link Spiked Gauntlets (considered BiS) to be a big enough DPS increase to not go for T7.

Chest? There is a sarth1d leather and a sarth2d mail better, with only the sarth2d chest being substantial (and like I said sarth2d is a ways down the road)

Shoulders are BiS for 10 man content. I would never wear the helm as the ridiculousness of the Spiked titansteel is far understated.
Last edited by Shoju on Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby katraya » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:10 am

Baelor - Thanks so much for your blog and posts. I've managed to utilize that information and get to the point where I am starting to nip at the heals of our much more experienced and better geared ret pally on the meters. :wink:

How valuable do you consider the 2pc bonus for ret? I am currently using the shoulders and legs from the 25 man. However, I also have Legplates of Double Strikes (socketed with 2 strength jc gems) which appear to be consistently rated better than the set legs.

Is the 2 pc bonus worth it over the better legs? As of right now I don't have any other set pieces (damn you Vanquisher tokens), gloves don't exist and when I got my chest I was still clinging to the idea of being able to raid prot.

Also, am I right in assuming that I should trade in Armageddon for the Jawbone if given the chance? We use loot council so I am pretty positive I won't be getting the mythical BoH anytime soon since we've only had one drop in the last few month or two.

My armory link is: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cho%27gall&n=Katraya if you're bored enough to do a more in depth critique. :D
Last edited by katraya on Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby uke » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:18 am

Ana wrote:
Dorvan wrote:The chestpiece from H DTK ( http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37722 ) is ridiculously over budget...it'd be better that 10 man T7 if it weren't for set bonuses.


Is that the one with the massive amount of hit rating? I think that's the one I have. I recently had a T7 chest drop (my only tier piece so far), went to the tier vendor, looked at the T7 chest, looked at my current chest, and went "um...looks like I'm keeping the blue" :P
Pally's been relegated to AH duties.

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Postby Candiru » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:30 am

Dorvan wrote:@Candiru: Unfortunately, your specific example is incorrect. At least at my gear level, the Bonecrusher is better than the Sword of Justice. The only ilevel 200 epic beaten by the Sword of justice is the Skull-Clad Cleaver.


Well, for my gear and for most gear (with raids buffs mind) combinations I tried in RAWR the sword of justice beat most of the level 200 epics and even a few level 213 ones.

The Jawbone is only slightly worse than BoH due to the slower speed, but BoH is still the best at the moment.

If you were in full Uludar 25m gear other than your weapon slot, the Jawbone might over take the BoH, due to your higher AP though.

In other words, use RAWR as ret gearing is very dependant on your exact gear setup!
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Postby Elsie » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:38 am

I'm a full time ret paladin. My question is for those who discount 4 pc t7 (10 man)

It equates to a 3% damage increase. If your DPS is X, then you have to judge if X*1.03 > X+Y where Y marginal increase you gain from non-tier piece stats.

So if we say 4pc is X + X*0.03, and non-4pc is X + Y, we need to know if Y > X*0.03.


In the above we assume X to be based off a tier geared paladin without the bonus. It's simply easier for notation, and Y is the marginal increase so the equation is balanced for it.
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Postby Candiru » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:43 am

Are the PvP gloves worth using?

I got them from a VoA 25m raid, and the +5% bonus to Crusader strike seems very strong for 1 item.

The only trouble is it makes getting the 4set bonus harder, but I lack the offspec T7 for that at the moment anyway.

RAWR says the gloves are very good, but I'm not convinced its using the correct CS uptime, since its not used on CD with the priority being judge->DS->CS?
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Postby Baelor » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:46 am

Katraya wrote:Baelor - Thanks so much for your blog and posts. I've managed to utilize that information and get to the point where I am starting to nip at the heals of our much more experienced and better geared ret pally on the meters. :wink:

How valauble do you consider the 2pc bonus for ret? I am currently using the shoulders and legs from the 25 man. However, I also have Legplates of Double Strikes (socketed with 2 strength jc gems) which appear to be consistently rated better than the set legs.

Is the 2 pc bonus worth it over the better legs? As of right now I don't have any other set pieces (damn you Vanquisher tokens), gloves don't exist and when I got my chest I was still clinging to the idea of being able to raid prot.

Also, am I right in assuming that I should trade in Armageddon for the Jawbone if given the chance? We use loot council so I am pretty positive I won't be getting the mythical BoH anytime soon since we've only had one drop in the last few month or two.

My armory link is: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cho%27gall&n=Katraya if you're bored enough to do a more in depth critique. :D

@Katraya

On 2pc t7: I personally think that the ret t7 set bonuses are great. However, I can't really speculate how much damage you'll gain/lose by swapping non-set legs in and losing your set bonus. Best advice I can give is get Redcape's spreadsheet and Rawr, enter in your gear sets with both legs in both programs, and note the variance. If both the spreadsheet and Rawr agree as to which set is higher, go with that.

On Jawbone/Armageddon: In almost every situation, Jawbone is the second best weapon in the game for a ret paladin right now. Yes, grab it.

On your armory: You're exalted with KotEB. Buy the Death-Inured Sabatons, socket 2x bold, replace those Titansteel treads. If you're feeling feisty, bust some valor tokens on the Bladed Steelboots.
Run some heroic Nexus in your spare time and get a Flame-bathed Steel Girdle (the epic belt from Keristrasza, name could be inaccurate). If you don't have ilvl 213 belts to choose from, that thing's the best you can get.
AP > Icewalker for boot enchants, if you don't mind spending the coin.
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Postby Eizen » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:59 am

T7 4pc bonus is the way to go :D
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Postby Ana » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:03 am

I wish, unfortunately I have to PuG in order to raid atm, and finding successful PuGs on my server isn't that easy. GM makes me tank the guild raids.
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Postby Janduin » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:10 am

Candiru wrote:What is important for ret in a weapon are:

1) Weapon speed
2) Weapon DPS.

The "average damage" simply gives you an indication that these other 2 important variables are high, but is itself not necessarily important.

Sword of justice
has 3.8s, and 169.2 DPS.
=643 average damage

Titansteel Bonecrusher
has 3.4s and 186.5 DPS.
=634 average damage

Now, the titantseel bonecrusher also has better stats since its a higher item budget item. But, if we ignore those for now and just look at the DPS/ WS/ average damage:

Sword of justice has better speed, but worse DPS. Average damage is about the same on both.

However, since Ret DPS scales with WS much more than DPS the sword of justice is better, even if you include the lower stats on the weapon.

This is because the weapon speed essentially multiplies your AP on your character sheet to increase your JoB and CS->SoB and DS->SoB hits.

The higher base DPS is equivalent to just adding some more +AP on the weapon, and so only scales with your crit/haste/etc but NOT with your AP.

Since ret paladins have a lot of AP, it works out that weapon speed is much much more important than weapon DPS, or average hit size.

If we were just talking about CS and DS damage on their own, not including the SoB proc, then it WOULD be just the "top-end" or average damage of the weapon to consider.

But, because SoB procs off CS and DS, and judgement is non-normalised ret scales highly with weapon speed.


Got some tasty maths I can look at?
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Postby Kelaan » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:20 am

Candiru wrote:However, since Ret DPS scales with WS much more than DPS the sword of justice is better, even if you include the lower stats on the weapon.

This is because the weapon speed essentially multiplies your AP on your character sheet to increase your JoB and CS->SoB and DS->SoB hits...

But, because SoB procs off CS and DS, and judgement is non-normalised ret scales highly with weapon speed.

THIS is the kind of explanation I was hoping to get; thanks.

- I thought instant strikes were normalized such that AP contributions were treated as being at speed 2.8 {edit: Doh, 2.8 is for ranged weapons. Sorry about that.}
- However, if procs are not normalized, then that does seem to favor a higher base damage, esp since they can proc off of instant strikes.
- Do we have confirmation that the SoB procs are not normalized?
Last edited by Kelaan on Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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