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[Ret-PvE] Gear

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Postby Elsie » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:00 pm

Zironic wrote:
4. Weapon damage range (aka "Top End") matters more than weapon DPS (reflective of Item Level).


Who gives a **** about top end in pve? What you usually care about is average damage which will always be speed * dps.

Top end (or average per-hit if you wish to look at it that way) matters a lot. The DPS of a given weapon doesn't reflect any significance on strike damage (which speed is a non-factor for). Average damage per hit is simply maximum damage - minimum damage / 2.
In theory +13 item level doesn't always confer superiority, but it's *very* hard to misitemize a weapon enough that a lower ilevel weapon is better: the gap between the best and worst ilevel 213s is smaller than the gap between the best ilevel 200 and the worst ilevel 213, or the best ilevel 213 and the only ilevel 226 (which is pretty badly itemized for Ret).

Well, I did say they seemed to do okay with 200/213. In general, Blizzard has gotten better with this. But, historically, they have failed quite a few times so I keep it up so people aren't swept away into a "Zomg Higher Epicz level guys!" mentality - even if it is not the case at the moment.
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Postby Harlequina » Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:50 am

Baelor,

Question from a semi retnoob in PvE: Is it truly always better with judgement first (single target)? Thing is, on single targets, I do judge first, then CS, then DS, etc. etc.

But when I do that, CS and Judgement overlap, or whatever the wording is. They come off the cooldown at the same time iirc. Yes, I do have the 4 set T7 bonus.

Maybe I'm thinking about it too much, but I don't like that overlapping. Although, does it matter? In the end, is Judgement first always the best DPS on single targets, no matter what?



And yea I'm asking Baelor here, since he's written quite some useful stuff about retri.



As for gearing, it feels like I've got it right. That strength truly is far better than anything else, and is worth TONS for a retribution paladin. But also that you don't want to be too low on either hit or expertise (I'm abit low on expertise afaik).

How much is a good amount of crit % though? I have around 32% or so.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:05 am

There are a lot of variations that are all extremely close to one another as far as rotations go. This is the best summary analysis I've seen of the options:

http://elitistjerks.com/1089199-post1113.html

Basically, Judgment should always be prioritized over CS unless you've got an 8 sec Judgment with Exorcism and Holy Wrath (so this could become relevant again in Ulduar). Strict J > CS rotations vs. rotations that throw in a filler after J if available are very close to one another.
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Postby Zironic » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:21 am

Top end (or average per-hit if you wish to look at it that way) matters a lot. The DPS of a given weapon doesn't reflect any significance on strike damage (which speed is a non-factor for). Average damage per hit is simply maximum damage - minimum damage / 2.


The point I'm trying to make is that top end has nothing to do with average damage, that a weapon with higher top end has higher average damage is nothing more then a happy accident. As you show in your equation low end is just as important.

Saying "top end" is highly inaccurate outside of PvP (Where you want your damage to be as variable as possible to make it hard to heal).

People like you that keep writing top end when you mean average damage has caused poor people like this guy to believe it actually matters:

Baelor wrote:If your example were the following, however...
Weapon A has 100 DPS and a 3.0 attack speed with a range of 300-300
Weapon B has 100 DPS and a 3.0 attack speed with a range of 1-600

Then I'd pick Weapon B because they have equal DPS and Weapon B has a higher top end damage.


Harlequina wrote:
As for gearing, it feels like I've got it right. That strength truly is far better than anything else, and is worth TONS for a retribution paladin. But also that you don't want to be too low on either hit or expertise (I'm abit low on expertise afaik).

How much is a good amount of crit % though? I have around 32% or so.


Since we don't proc anything important from crit there's no such thing as a "good" amount of crit.

You can use a spreadsheet like:
http://hosted.filefront.com/ExemplarWoW

to figure out exactly what various stats are worth for you, odds are it'll tell you that strenght>all.

Or you can use rawr:
http://www.codeplex.com/Rawr

Which will tell you exactly what pieces are upgrades.
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Postby Baelor » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:26 am

Dorvan wrote:
Baelor wrote:Then I'd pick Weapon B because they have equal DPS and Weapon B has a higher top end damage.


...but all that means is that your DPS will have a higher variance. In fact, the way JoB is right now that's probably a bad thing, as you're opening yourself up to larger self-spike damage, and getting no sustained DPS increase in return.

Because of the Relentless meta gem which you should be using, your crit damage is amplified. If you have bigger crits, you get more mileage out of the meta. Damage is going to be slightly higher with a higher top-end weapon if the DPS value is constant.

@Zironic
Read the above. That's why I would choose a higher top-end weapon over a small variance damage range with DPS values equal.
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Postby Baelor » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:28 am

Harlequina wrote:Baelor,

Question from a semi retnoob in PvE: Is it truly always better with judgement first (single target)? Thing is, on single targets, I do judge first, then CS, then DS, etc. etc.

But when I do that, CS and Judgement overlap, or whatever the wording is. They come off the cooldown at the same time iirc. Yes, I do have the 4 set T7 bonus.

Maybe I'm thinking about it too much, but I don't like that overlapping. Although, does it matter? In the end, is Judgement first always the best DPS on single targets, no matter what?



And yea I'm asking Baelor here, since he's written quite some useful stuff about retri.



As for gearing, it feels like I've got it right. That strength truly is far better than anything else, and is worth TONS for a retribution paladin. But also that you don't want to be too low on either hit or expertise (I'm abit low on expertise afaik).

How much is a good amount of crit % though? I have around 32% or so.

Keep doing what you're doing, but when J & CS come off cooldown at the same time, use J, then throw a DS, Cons, or Exorcism in before you CS to delay the next cooldown clash.
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Postby Zironic » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:47 am

Baelor wrote:Because of the Relentless meta gem which you should be using, your crit damage is amplified. If you have bigger crits, you get more mileage out of the meta. Damage is going to be slightly higher with a higher top-end weapon if the DPS value is constant.

@Zironic
Read the above. That's why I would choose a higher top-end weapon over a small variance damage range with DPS values equal.


There's no math to support that statement, average crit damage with a lower end weapon and higher end weapon will be the same with equal speed and dps.

You'll have the potential for higher crits but you'll also have the potential for lower crits and in the end sustained dps is unaffected.
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Postby Baelor » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:48 am

Zironic wrote:
Baelor wrote:Because of the Relentless meta gem which you should be using, your crit damage is amplified. If you have bigger crits, you get more mileage out of the meta. Damage is going to be slightly higher with a higher top-end weapon if the DPS value is constant.

@Zironic
Read the above. That's why I would choose a higher top-end weapon over a small variance damage range with DPS values equal.


There's no math to support that statement, average crit damage with a lower end weapon and higher end weapon will be the same with equal speed and dps.

Yea I walked away and realized that the min damage crits would balance it out.

All right, Zironic, while I dig up the support, why do you claim that a smaller damage range is better for PvE?
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Postby Zironic » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:51 am

Baelor wrote:Yea I walked away and realized that the min damage crits would balance it out.

All right, Zironic, while I dig up the support, why do you claim that a smaller damage range is better for PvE?


That's not the claim i'm making, I'm saying that you shouldn't use the therm "top end" when you mean "average hit" since it'll confuse people into thinking you mean something you don't.

Same reason we shouldn't use the term "defense cap".
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Postby uke » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:46 am

Zironic wrote:
Baelor wrote:Everyone gives a **** about top end in PvE. Average and top end are related in the same manner as speed and average.


Imagine these two weapons.

Weapon A has 110 DPS and 3.0 attack speed with a range of 330-330
Weapon B has 100 DPS and 3.0 attack speed with a randge of 1-600.

Which one would you pick for PvE?


Question: do the damage 'ranges' on the weapons in this game differ enough (outside of dps/weapon speed) to even make this an issue?

Unlike Diablo 2, I don't recall a significant disparity in damage ranges vs. high/low end damage in weapons in this game. In other words (speaking in generalizations) are there 3.5 speed/200dps weapons that have ranges of 350-450 and others of 100-600? I can't recall any examples, offhand.

I thought that all weapon damage ranges were normalized across the board, with the only variance being damage range vs speed.
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Postby Baelor » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:57 am

Zironic wrote:
Baelor wrote:Yea I walked away and realized that the min damage crits would balance it out.

All right, Zironic, while I dig up the support, why do you claim that a smaller damage range is better for PvE?


That's not the claim i'm making, I'm saying that you shouldn't use the therm "top end" when you mean "average hit" since it'll confuse people into thinking you mean something you don't.

Same reason we shouldn't use the term "defense cap".

The reason that "top end" is just as applicable as "average hit" in this case is because weapons like your examples don't exist.

Death's Bite
203.7 DPS
554-831 range
692.5 mean damage
277 variance from min to max
2.5 factor of mean damage/variance

The Jawbone
203.6 DPS
586-880 range
733 mean damage
294 variance from min to max
2.49 factor of mean damage/variance

Black Ice
203.7 DPS
570-856 range
713 mean damage
286 variance from min to max
2.49 factor of mean damage/variance

The ratio of average damage to damage range variance is constant across weapons. Therefore, given Blizzard's design philosophy concerning weapon creation, a average hit will always be higher on a weapon that has a higher maximum damage, given that the mean to variance ratio is constant.

Sure, my claim that you should look to the top-end of weapons when DPS value is the same is oversimplifying matters. But, it's not incorrect, and for the purposes of guiding people to the better weapon for retribution, it lands them in the same spot. If you can find me a weapon comparison where two 2H weapons have the same DPS and the mean/variance ratio is not within a decimal point of 2.5, then it's possible to lead people astray by saying "top-end."
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Postby Janduin » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:10 am

TBH, I don't see how relevant the variance to average weapon damage is at all.

If you are constrained by DPS, as we are here (all weapons the same dps), then the only thing that affects average damage per hit is weapon speed. You could double the damage range and the average hit size would stay the same.
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Postby Baelor » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:14 am

Janduin wrote:TBH, I don't see how relevant the variance to average weapon damage is at all.

If you are constrained by DPS, as we are here (all weapons the same dps), then the only thing that affects average damage per hit is weapon speed. You could double the damage range and the average hit size would stay the same.

Yea I'm doing a bunch of math for nothing. I don't know what I'm getting at.
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Postby semp » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:54 am

in pve dps = dps. Pvp you want the bigger crits from a higher top end, slower speed weapon. its all about the burst potential.
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Postby Candiru » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:17 am

What is important for ret in a weapon are:

1) Weapon speed
2) Weapon DPS.

The "average damage" simply gives you an indication that these other 2 important variables are high, but is itself not necessarily important.

Sword of justice
has 3.8s, and 169.2 DPS.
=643 average damage

Titansteel Bonecrusher
has 3.4s and 186.5 DPS.
=634 average damage

Now, the titantseel bonecrusher also has better stats since its a higher item budget item. But, if we ignore those for now and just look at the DPS/ WS/ average damage:

Sword of justice has better speed, but worse DPS. Average damage is about the same on both.

However, since Ret DPS scales with WS much more than DPS the sword of justice is better, even if you include the lower stats on the weapon.

This is because the weapon speed essentially multiplies your AP on your character sheet to increase your JoB and CS->SoB and DS->SoB hits.

The higher base DPS is equivalent to just adding some more +AP on the weapon, and so only scales with your crit/haste/etc but NOT with your AP.

Since ret paladins have a lot of AP, it works out that weapon speed is much much more important than weapon DPS, or average hit size.

If we were just talking about CS and DS damage on their own, not including the SoB proc, then it WOULD be just the "top-end" or average damage of the weapon to consider.

But, because SoB procs off CS and DS, and judgement is non-normalised ret scales highly with weapon speed.
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