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[10/25] Sartharion +3 Fire Resist Theroycrafting...

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Postby Belloc » Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:24 pm

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Postby Mex » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:29 pm

Joanadark wrote:No there isnt.
Absolute damage taken is irrelevant, the only thing that matters is the way it is clustered. EDF theory at work right here.


Actually, more important than how it's clustered, is the maximum value. If that's higher than the tank's health, you need a cooldown. And yes, even with capped FR the max value will still kill the tank, but only 4% of the time. If you're left without other options, that's acceptable enough to still beat the fight.

Lets say you have a paladin healer.
Wearing normal gear, the paladin spams you with Holy Lights chain-casted to constantly top you off from the damage you are taking, however all of the damage you take is predictable. Every breath can be lined up with your casting bar, and the physical damage is of minimal enough threat that even the potential for the timings lining up in awkward ways or you having to move around because of bad stuff happening will not result in a dead tank.

Let's say the tank instead follow this guy's setup.
Now, the paladin STILL has to spam chain-casts of holy light into the tank, because the danger of stuff lining up in bad ways or bad luck with the RNG is such that you have absolutely no control over the situation and must preventively pour healing into the tank t stop that happening. Greater mitigation of breaths doesnt make any difference whatsoever in the healer's ability to conserve, nor does it make any difference in the tank's survivability because its consisting of roughly the same relative proportion of tha tank's total life as it would in a normal setup.


Let's say you have a druid or shaman healer. If you're using a paladin to tank, they will die on the second "super" breath and you won't be able to do the fight. Greater mitigation DOES increase the tank's survivability, just not reliably or predictably.

However, in this case you have far less effective healing being done, both due to the damage levels, which are lower but more dangerously clustered, and due to the far smaller health pool buffer you have to play with. This means less healing will be copied over through beacon, directly increasing healing requirements elsewhere and reducing your own healer's effectiveness.


All that's being mitigated are the breaths, breaths which would otherwise one-shot the tank. The melee damage is still consistent, and even moreso than with someone in traditional tank gear, where 0 damage intake in a 10 second period between breaths is in no way unreasonable. If this is honestly a detriment to the fight, then why do DKs use AMS to mitigate breaths? Surely it would be better to just take the damage to increase your paladin's effective healing yeah?

Additionally, every time a butterfly flaps it's wings in china, your tank will just die. And theres nothing the paladin could have done about it.

You tell me which one is better.


I'm not positive, but I don't think anyone ever suggested that this was "better" than using holy priests / pallies and a DK / feral MT? The point here is to discuss its viability, not whether it's the absolute best possible strategy. Yes, it is RNG based. That's been established and identified as one of the major problems with the strat.

Its the realities of the itemization available. If you stack resistance, you have to give up defense. If you concentrate your defense by using things like Repelling Charge, you sacrifice non-trivial amounts of stamina instead.
There is no good solution.


The "assured" lack of the defense cap. Tell me which is less trivial -- taking double damage from a melee swing, or losing ~200-300 stam? Again, the OP mentioned his low HP as a serious downside of the strat, yet you still saw fit to assume that he wouldn't be defense capped? Now you're saying that it's possible, but would result in low HP. That's not really a constructive contribution ...

Honestly, the main problem I have with this is that I distrust tanking theorycraft that describes incoming damage using words like "pathetic" and "laughable", as they tend to spring from bad tanks who's healers carry the. Not an accusation, just an observation.
Additionally, opening with essentially "I am a math teacher, therefore you should take me seriously when I make unsupported claims" and then never using any math at all in the following post is pretty tacky and smacks of the self-righteous armchair theorycrafting that I'd expect to see on the WoW forums, not here.

I look forward to seeing a wws.


If that's the main problem you have with this then please stop wasting everyone's time by criticising it for no reason. You're honestly going to attack what could very-well be a completely viable strategy for many guilds simply because you have a problem with the OP's choice of words? You're going to dismiss a strategy over nothing more than semantics?

You know, I tend to distrust any theorycrafting from people who include such statements as "clearly you haven't healed this" (ie unsupported / invalid assumptions intended only to attempt to discredit what's being said, rather than actually challenge or debate it), in their arguments. In my experience, it means that they care more about being right than actually assessing the worth of something. That's what you seem to be doing now, defending the way _you_ do the fight, and discounting other strats because you want to be right. Not an accusation, just an observation.

I don't think that there's any question that the traditional DK/Feral MT in stam-stacked or normal gear, chaining CDs alongside holy priest/pally healers is the best way to do this fight. The thing is though, that that isn't an option that's available to every guild, and that this is a strategy that could potentially net them a kill (at the cost of RNG wipes every now and then) where they would otherwise be flat-out unable to attain it.
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Re: [10/25] Sartharion +3 Fire Resist Theroycrafting...

Postby EvilNuff » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:49 pm

Grizwold wrote:...
When all 3 are up, breaths are:
45937-59062 (57424-73825) (ouch)

Now, from talents/buffs/meta we can achieve 20% spell reduction, (6% RF, 6% GbtL, 3% BoSanc, 3% SotT, 2% meta), which puts the breath at a respectable:
36749-47250 (45939-59060)
...


I believe resists are multiplicative not additive. In other words you dont sum 6+6+3+3+2=20 you multiply 1-(0.94*0.94*0.97*0.97*0.98) = 1-81.48% = 18.52% spell reduction. A slight change but it matters.
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:47 pm

Belloc wrote:http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/viewtopic.php?t=19702&highlight=resistence+resistance

there you go.


In looking at this subject with a friend who was debating a DK tank vs a Bear tank, I'm of the very poorly-supported opinion that only a Bear can really afford to stack resist gear.

Grabbing lv 80 green fire protection gear should get a bear to the 400+ range pretty quickly, and that pretty much guarantees at least 40% reduction. His Bear is also a LW, so he's got +60 FR to bracers as an enchant option, so I have a feeling he'd only be giving up about 4 pieces of gear to break 400.

Anyway, between PotP and BoS and a minimum resist amount of 40%, I think that'd bring the max hit from 73k down to around 36k. Still not very nice number, but I don't have a good handle on what FiR gearing would do to a Bear's HP pool. He may still need cooldowns, but weaker cooldowns would be more viable.

Dropping ~4 pieces of gear from a plate tank just sounds insanely hard to crit cap, especially when everything's already being bent towards maxing out stamina. This is a gearing flexibility that seems unique to Bears.

That said, I think my friend was going to stick with his DK due to his Blood spec having a nicer proactive version of AD built in.
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:51 pm

Grizwold wrote:
Ewige wrote:How about revising the numbers based on Belloc's updated scales? Is it still an FR situation you're making it out to be?

(I'm genuinely curious, never thought about FR here)


On that scale it wouldnt work out, but looking at WWSes of saph and using Frost rez there, it seems to still be 25/50/75% and not lower 10% points.


Not being snide here, honest. Can you point me to parses that look like that? I'm looking for more stats. Everything I see has heroic resists in multiples of 160, and normal resists in multiples of 120.
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Re: [10/25] Sartharion +3 Fire Resist Theroycrafting...

Postby Grizwold » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:49 pm

EvilNuff wrote:I believe resists are multiplicative not additive. In other words you dont sum 6+6+3+3+2=20 you multiply 1-(0.94*0.94*0.97*0.97*0.98) = 1-81.48% = 18.52% spell reduction. A slight change but it matters.


I'll update this later, and in reference to resistance mechanics, its even different from what a few of the Tankspot and other forum's threads say...

The WWS showed that i resisted 35%, 45%, 55%, or 65% of every breath. There was NO breath that wasnt in that range. The frequency was :
35% resist - ~13%
45% resist - ~37%
55% resist - ~37%
65% resist - ~13%
which is a great bell curve and totals ~ 50% reduction. The problem is the 35% reduction breaths would hurt at max damage. (with the multiplicative resistance mechanisms) In the 10 man, 59062 times .8148 = 48123 times .65 (35% resist) = 31280 max breath damage in 416 Fire resist. based on the trials. So Theoretically if you could get 32000 life after the -25% aura and have 416+ Fire resist, you could live through every breath in the 10 man without a cooldown, however the melee afterwards would most likely kill you. I was at 33k 'semi-buffed' life before the aura on these attempts, we didnt do +3 because we were missing kings/commanding(and imp)/mark that should have accounted for almost 6k more health, but after the aura I still would not have been close to 32k. When we have an ideal group makeup for the +3 attempts, we will be trying the FR method to see how it does stack up for the breaths. We will also as many people have pointed out, be switching tanks after the drakes are all dead due to the substantially more mitigation that the drake tank has.
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Postby Scrawn » Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:36 pm

Good luck with this, im all for interesting alternative strategies
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I'm not sure if you're aware, but math is, in fact, not voodoo magic, and you can't invalidate the
mathematical formulae the game is based on with your nonsense anecdotes
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Postby Viycktor » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:14 pm

This thread: http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... hp?t=20173
Might make you rethink the meta, or make it better with FR gear depending. In any event, it does have bearing in this discussion.
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Postby Grizwold » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:46 pm

Viycktor wrote:This thread: http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... hp?t=20173
Might make you rethink the meta, or make it better with FR gear depending. In any event, it does have bearing in this discussion.


Thanks for the info, I'll look into this alot more, and maybe thats where I hit 416 with just 3 pieces of gear from... Ill have to add it up. i guess that lowers the pre-FR resistance values to ~16.7% instead of ~18.59%. which does change things a bit.

I'll do alot more work on this in the near future as we get some sarth +3 attempts in and see how it goes. I'll also try to post some WWS's on the front page with the resistance mechanics and the breath values.
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Postby Belloc » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:10 am

http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t44675-resi ... ics_wotlk/

Resists are currently incrementing on a 10% scale. If you are seeing 15% or 25% resists, that thread will explain why. It also shows that 0% resists can be removed entirely.
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Postby Grizwold » Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:50 pm

updated with new resistance mechanisms
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:35 pm

Thanks for finding that, Belloc. I never would've found it on EJ.

Now I can rest easy. :)
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Postby Grizwold » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:24 pm

Well I can say it definately IS possible, but the mechanics arent quite right. I successfully tanked it jsut a few minutes ago, but there were times where i took 35k or more from a breath. I am pissed at myself as I hit /combatlog twice and it logged about 4 minutes of attempts, and then frapsed failed attempts but not the main. I will be doing this a few more times possibly, so I hope to get some WWS or Fraps, but there were MANY times that without cooldowns (and twice on the kill) that I survived the breaths of doom with only PW:S. Glad it works and will be hopefully getting some vids up in the near future.

EDIT: This was the 10-man btw. got 7 new people in our gruild "of the Nightfall"
Setup was:
Me - Sarth
Warrior - Drakes
DPS DK - Whelps/flames
Disc Priest - healing me (sarth)
Beacon Pally - Warrior (drake+beacon on the DK)
Elemental shammy dpsing till shad ~ 50% then healing
Rogue
Boomkin
Ret Pally
Mage


Good luck to everyone else that is thinking of trying this!
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Postby kram » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:53 am

Grizwold wrote:I will be doing this a few more times possibly, so I hope to get some WWS or Fraps, but there were MANY times that without cooldowns (and twice on the kill) that I survived the breaths of doom with only PW:S.


I've seen our warrior mt(stam gear, ~29k after debuff) on os10 take a quite few full breaths (shadron+vesperon+acolytes) without cds or pw:s over the past two weeks without dieing.
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Postby Grizwold » Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:38 am

kram wrote:
Grizwold wrote:I will be doing this a few more times possibly, so I hope to get some WWS or Fraps, but there were MANY times that without cooldowns (and twice on the kill) that I survived the breaths of doom with only PW:S.


I've seen our warrior mt(stam gear, ~29k after debuff) on os10 take a quite few full breaths (shadron+vesperon+acolytes) without cds or pw:s over the past two weeks without dieing.


Got the combat logs or WWSes? those breaths should be hitting for ~ 40-45k without FR or cooldowns. and if hes only at 29k life and living something odd is happening, or he is getting VERY lucky with partial resists at low FR values. I am at 27k after the debuff in 418FR and was still getting 1 shot every now and then (35K hits)
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