Damnable Sapphiron

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Postby oldsmurgle » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:53 am

Ferrix wrote:
I put on healy gear and heal the melee. Druid healer who has bad lag heals MT. Preist heals rest. Our dps lacks in some areas, with a couple doing 2k and the rest around 1.2k or more. Most of the time its a healer death that pwns us during phase 2. Not from teh frost nova, but from the bolts that ice block people (one of them always seems to get pwnt at this time).


To put it simply, if this is your guild you're talking about, they fail, in so many ways. If I'm in a pug and see someone doing 1200 dps, I boot them or leave the group, hell I wouldn't even raid with a guildie that bad.

Just think about it, in BC, at level 70, in badge gear, alot of classes could hit 1200 dps. By time you hit 80, not only do you have better spells/abilities, but you should also have begun upgrading gear. There is alot of instance loot that is better then the only 70 badge gear. So all together, if 10 levels and gear upgrades aren't enough to boost your dps over 1200, then you're doing something wrong.

As for dying to the ice blocks, thats a failure on two parts. Those ice blocks don't hit enough to one shot anyone who is nearly topped off, and after the first time someone dies to one, you should all realize, don't stack up until the second ice bolt hits. If its your healers who continually die to the ice bolt, they need to learn to keep themselves up too, and to not stack and die to a simple aoe



just to follow up...

we arent a hardcore raiding guild and we've been enjoying just raiding for fun. we ended up downing him again this week after not being able to last week. notably, everyone was doing 1800+ this week. it seems that one that was slacking is gone and the other musta been afk fapping because he went from 1200 to 2000+ in one week.

thanks for advice though.
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Postby melkior » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:34 am

Greetings,

We downed Sapph our first time this week. We are not a hardcore by anymeans (otherwise we'd have downed sapph weeks ago right?)

One thing we do well though is actually stop and discuss what we are doing wrong each fight.

We stop and say "who died ? " and then when they speak up ask the "what got you killed".

When people self identify what is killing them; then they have a chance to reflect back that they didn't move out of the Blizzard/Chill for example.

I realized that when he went into the air phase we had a LOT of confusion, people were clumping and getting splash damage from frost bolts and then not making it behind and ice block in time.

So I took us into Anrub's room and aligned everyone around the boss circle there.

I think assigned everyone a specific spot to move to when he goes into air phase.

Everyone is in the same 1/3 of the room so they are close to the ice block when it comes - yet everyone is given space so that they shouldn't be closer to more than 1 person if they get ice blocked.

I made it so melee have to run farthest, and healers the least so that healers can top people off before the icebolt's come.

We killed him 2 tries after that.

People knew they had to do it - but there was not an actual plan in place. Combining knowledge + a plan = win for us.

good luck!
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Postby daemonym » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:17 am

my guild 1 shot him for the first time the other night (not counting when i lagged and got 1 shot by a breath). i run in and turn him to the right, raid runs up mid range between him and the entrance. this way it's a much shorter distance for me and melee to get to safety from a breath. most of the main points have been said already but i'll reiterate the ones i feel are of special importance.

-his hit box is fucking BIG. this means that your melee can easily eat a cleave or tail swipe by accident. have them stand single file right in line with his hind legs at max range. guaranteed they won't get 1 shot.

-the win/wipe of this fight is 99% on your healers. if you're running with all pally healers this might be a problem, but unlikely. otherwise you'll need 1 on the tank and a good coh priest or resto shammy dedicated to raid heals. if they can't keep up on it they're not geared enough and need another person to help heal.

-after the breath removes the ice block immediately run to where he lands and get in position. hit him with exorcism and AS before he lands to make sure you got his attention, you have plenty of time to position and cast both spells.

-if you 're having problems with his air phase get a dk (if you have one) to spec into unholy aura weather they like it or not.

-decurse fool! if your mages druids or shammys can't be bothered, tell them you're getting a pug to replace them until they learn. but if they're honestly trying, but just not fast enough to hit it in time, have them get the addon decursive and spend 10 minutes reading about it. they will immediately improve.
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Postby masterpoobaa » Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:24 pm

In 10 man I just use 1 frost piece. the craftable frost ring with a defence gem - I like to stay uncrittable.
Tank him in 1 spot... save your 50% damage reduction cooldown for if you get caught in a blizzard while tanking him.

while running away in phase 2, you can be helpful by spamming a few flash heals here & there.

And yes, JoL is godly on big battles like this... the amound of +350 heals i see popping up on melee players is sweet.
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Postby alayire » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:56 am

Ferrix wrote:
I put on healy gear and heal the melee. Druid healer who has bad lag heals MT. Preist heals rest. Our dps lacks in some areas, with a couple doing 2k and the rest around 1.2k or more. Most of the time its a healer death that pwns us during phase 2. Not from teh frost nova, but from the bolts that ice block people (one of them always seems to get pwnt at this time).


To put it simply, if this is your guild you're talking about, they fail, in so many ways. If I'm in a pug and see someone doing 1200 dps, I boot them or leave the group, hell I wouldn't even raid with a guildie that bad.

Just think about it, in BC, at level 70, in badge gear, alot of classes could hit 1200 dps. By time you hit 80, not only do you have better spells/abilities, but you should also have begun upgrading gear. There is alot of instance loot that is better then the only 70 badge gear. So all together, if 10 levels and gear upgrades aren't enough to boost your dps over 1200, then you're doing something wrong.

As for dying to the ice blocks, thats a failure on two parts. Those ice blocks don't hit enough to one shot anyone who is nearly topped off, and after the first time someone dies to one, you should all realize, don't stack up until the second ice bolt hits. If its your healers who continually die to the ice bolt, they need to learn to keep themselves up too, and to not stack and die to a simple aoe
have you actualy stopped for a moment to think maybe .. just maybe he was talking about dps on Saphiron himself?! Dps on Saphiron will always be low, especialy for mele because the encounter has alot of dead dps time. not to mention if you gimp yourself with frost gear.

as to the OP. the 10 man fight is about the hardest in Naxx.
the main killer in this encounter is the blizzard. nomater how good your healers are or how geared they are .. if people don't move out of blizzard .. you'll never make it.
but that's not all of it. bad mele/ranged ballance will make it severily worse for your group. too many mele and blizzard will make it moustly imposible for them to dps, too many rangers and you clump up the blizzard on the healers. to ease this try and distribute people eavenly on the side you chose to dps from so blizzard doesn't chase more then 2 people or .. you can split in 2 sides and run for the door when he lifts. this is by far the moust important aspect of making this fight. remember blizzard can chase your healers too making it very unlikely that they can top the raid intime.
the worse matter is that blizzard doesn't kill the player so easyly but it will take them low enough to get killed by the icebolts. this is very frustrating for the healers to keep up with.

to make it worse for your healers the aura damage is constant and priity taxing. some healers may not be acustomed to never seen people full on life and lose time on unnecesary overhealing. as mentioned in the thread already Jol tremendiously helps aleviate this problem as does frost resistance aura. some frost gear willl make a difference in damage taken but it's really a non issue if you fix blizzard damage. this is a fight where having a paladin is really worth it.

and ofcourse fast decurse. dps-ers(mages) are the better option .. because usualy shamans and druids will be healing meaning they will lose GCD's better spent on keeping the raid up or tanking(druids).[/b]
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Postby Celestira » Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:41 pm

Kynes wrote:
Nalyn wrote:It doesn't matter if you're capable of doing 10k dps, if you die 30 seconds into the fight, from the first time you take damage, you'll do zero for the next 5 minutes, cause you're tanking the floor.


Thank you Nalyn. You made me laugh out loud irl. Srsly. I'm going to use this line next time someone fucks my immortal achievment.


Agreed. Best expression I've heard in a while.


Martie wrote:
Once you have this fight down, you can turn it to a 'kill the shadow priest' subgame. It's a lot of fun, so get to it.


I thought I was the only one that did stuff like that! At about 45% I asked over vent if anyone wanted to play tennis then proceeded to swing the boss around, sending random dps flying. Then at 5%, I flung him around the rest of the way and chased the melee trying to get them cleaved. They survived :(
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Postby Annadin » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:36 am

Just a quickie (it stupidly wiped us in 25-man last week, never again)...

If folks use DBM they will yell "I'm an Iceblock" whenever they get iceblocked in the airborne phase. The current bug we're encountering is that other players' speech bubbles appear over ones own head.

We had 9 people incorrectly think they were yelling and were going to be an iceblock. Cue 9 people standing, waiting for an extra second or 2 :roll:

That said, and in answer to the OP:

Let's assume folks know their class roles and responsibilities (decurse > all, melee sliding around to avoid the blizzard etc).

If that's the case, (and hey, you cleared downstairs to get here...) then the most likely cause of wipes before you're totally farming this is probably the rush-to-the-first-iceblock effect. Don't panic, do get moving but don't clump up until the second iceblock has popped then pick the one that's not being blizzarded :)
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Postby mazater » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:20 am

Just in case nobody said it, Sacred Shield. It's awsum in here.

I'm wasting GCD's to put Sacred Shields on people, mostly the ones with low hp and/or ADHD.
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Postby Pallypete » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:35 pm

Anybody ever have an issue with Saph not doing the usual 2 iceblocks (or 3 in 25-man?) It's happened to me twice so far, once in 10 and once in 25, he only did one iceblock before his deep breath, and only did 2 on 25-man once. And it wasn't that someone died as they were getting iceblocked, everybody in the raid was still alive.
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Postby inthedrops » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:43 pm

Pallypete wrote:Anybody ever have an issue with Saph not doing the usual 2 iceblocks (or 3 in 25-man?) It's happened to me twice so far, once in 10 and once in 25, he only did one iceblock before his deep breath, and only did 2 on 25-man once. And it wasn't that someone died as they were getting iceblocked, everybody in the raid was still alive.


I've seen it on 25 man (only two blocks). I think it's an acknowledged bug, not entirely sure.
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:00 pm

I've certainly seen it... when I did, some people were dead so I assumed the # of blocks scaled down with # of raiders. Once when we only had 8-10 people up in a heroic, there was only 1 block during an air phase.
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Postby Deloimoi » Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:02 pm

My guild only had problems on the time that we didn't assign healing. Just throw 3 heals on the tank and 2 on the raid (depending on the classes you have, we did druid/priest on the raid) and you will be fine as long as people move out of blizzards.

Most important things to remember:
MOVE OUT OF BLIZZARD
Decurse fast as you can
Stay 15 yards apart when he flys up, and only get behind the blocks when all of them are down.
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Postby Deloimoi » Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:06 pm

oldsmurgle wrote:
Ferrix wrote:
I put on healy gear and heal the melee. Druid healer who has bad lag heals MT. Preist heals rest. Our dps lacks in some areas, with a couple doing 2k and the rest around 1.2k or more. Most of the time its a healer death that pwns us during phase 2. Not from teh frost nova, but from the bolts that ice block people (one of them always seems to get pwnt at this time).


To put it simply, if this is your guild you're talking about, they fail, in so many ways. If I'm in a pug and see someone doing 1200 dps, I boot them or leave the group, hell I wouldn't even raid with a guildie that bad.

Just think about it, in BC, at level 70, in badge gear, alot of classes could hit 1200 dps. By time you hit 80, not only do you have better spells/abilities, but you should also have begun upgrading gear. There is alot of instance loot that is better then the only 70 badge gear. So all together, if 10 levels and gear upgrades aren't enough to boost your dps over 1200, then you're doing something wrong.

As for dying to the ice blocks, thats a failure on two parts. Those ice blocks don't hit enough to one shot anyone who is nearly topped off, and after the first time someone dies to one, you should all realize, don't stack up until the second ice bolt hits. If its your healers who continually die to the ice bolt, they need to learn to keep themselves up too, and to not stack and die to a simple aoe



just to follow up...

we arent a hardcore raiding guild and we've been enjoying just raiding for fun. we ended up downing him again this week after not being able to last week. notably, everyone was doing 1800+ this week. it seems that one that was slacking is gone and the other musta been afk fapping because he went from 1200 to 2000+ in one week.

thanks for advice though.


Wow, I don't raid with anyone under 2.8k dps, but I'm not going to trash your guild. The fact that people with that bad dps and lag (though seriously, if you know you have bad lag you shouldn't raid) are getting through the content makes me glad that blizz's model of raiding has worked out.
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Postby majiben » Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:09 pm

Won't raid with anyone under 2.8k DPS? Sounds like you're spoiled and haven't done progression in ages.
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Postby daemonym » Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:11 pm

to date our biggest problem has been from 2 people getting blocked close by (usually a healer included) and a blizzard just hanging out on top of us the whole time. happened 4 times in a row a bit ago. annoying rng is annoying.
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