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The extreme lameness of the priest requirement in Naxx/25

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Postby Petrus » Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:48 pm

I have to agree that I wish it were like the 10man version of the fight. We've got two priests that are VERY good at this, and two other priests who just never do it, but only one of the four is Shadow. We've been giving our holy priest unwanted cloth hit gear just to use for Raz. They really need to change it to use the crystals.
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Postby Martie » Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:16 am

Petrus wrote: We've been giving our holy priest unwanted cloth hit gear just to use for Raz. They really need to change it to use the crystals.

So what?

I'm sorry, but having a bunch of situational gear with you should be normal, not something that's weird.
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Postby hoho » Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:22 am

Interesting, our holy priest with zero hit hasn't had any problems MC'ing there as other priest is constantly on the lookout to grab the boss back when needed. I've heard that having tremor totems down can cause some problems though
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Postby majiben » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:58 am

hoho wrote:Interesting, our holy priest with zero hit hasn't had any problems MC'ing there as other priest is constantly on the lookout to grab the boss back when needed. I've heard that having tremor totems down can cause some problems though
Why would a shamman lay tremor totems on that fight??
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Postby Arjuna » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:02 am

Worldie wrote:Slightly offtopic, but i've just read a amusing whine on wow boards about Maexxna being too hardcore cause it requires you to have a paladin, shaman or druid in the raid.


It's getting beyond sad to be honest.


indeed, especially since 2 of those classes can fill 3 spots in a raid easily, and the other one still can fill 2...if they don't have one of these 8 specs...well, they fail... :P
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Postby hoho » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:12 am

Majiben wrote:Why would a shamman lay tremor totems on that fight??
Beats me but I've heard that it immediately breaks MC on the mobs.
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Postby Lore » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:05 am

I see two primary issues being discussed here and I think they're overlapping a lot.

#1: Priest tanking Razuvious is hard.

No it's not. It's Mind control, 6 5 444444444444444444444444 6 5 44444444444444 repeat. It isn't any more taxing on the player than Malygos (in fact, significantly less so), so if your Priests can't handle MC tanking Razuvious, they need to either learn or be replaced or you will not be able to kill Malygos.

#2: Requiring two Priest is annoying.

Yeah, kinda. There was actually a blue post about it in beta (Kalgan I think). They said they were keeping an eye on it, but didn't think requiring 2 priests was too much of a stretch. I'm inclined to agree, even though I only have one reliable priest. If it helps, Razuvious' drops are mostly terrible and all the gear the priest needs can be picked up from even non-heroic 5mans, so if anyone's got a Priest alt, that can work too.
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Postby Morganim » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:39 am

I have nfi what some of your are doing wrong to get 'resists every time' but seriously theres something your not doing right.

We did it this week with 2x holy priests who both went without there hit gear as it was way to much effort to go back to a bank. Once again we 1 shot it and it still remains the easiest fight in naxx.
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Postby Belloc » Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:03 am

Morganim wrote:I have nfi what some of your are doing wrong to get 'resists every time' but seriously theres something your not doing right.

We did it this week with 2x holy priests who both went without there hit gear as it was way to much effort to go back to a bank. Once again we 1 shot it and it still remains the easiest fight in naxx.

The Rasuvious encounter suffers from a bug where the mobs can gain a level of shadow resistance that causes issues for priests. Not knowing about this bug can cause major issues for some raids.

The way to fix it is to cast Curse of Elements (or equivalent) on the adds before they get MC'd.
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Postby Martie » Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:36 am

We had some priests in our guild that weren't sure on how mind control works either.

Some tips for those that still have issues.

Range matters. The farther the trainee is from the controller, the more likely it is to break.
Shadow resistance, when applied to the trainee, makes it harder to keep the mind control up (and as far as I know, they get raid-wide buffs such as auras and totems applied to them.)
You don't have to keep all trainees controlled all the time, and you can break it early. Only the trainee tanking ~needs~ to be controlled.
Make sure tanks know to taunt once the mind control breaks. It's an idea to keep a tank standing next to the priests should this happen.
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Postby Belloc » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:24 am

Martie wrote:We had some priests in our guild that weren't sure on how mind control works either.

Some tips for those that still have issues.

Range matters. The farther the trainee is from the controller, the more likely it is to break.
Shadow resistance, when applied to the trainee, makes it harder to keep the mind control up (and as far as I know, they get raid-wide buffs such as auras and totems applied to them.)
You don't have to keep all trainees controlled all the time, and you can break it early. Only the trainee tanking ~needs~ to be controlled.
Make sure tanks know to taunt once the mind control breaks. It's an idea to keep a tank standing next to the priests should this happen.

The problem with tanks taunting is... Rasuvious can one-shot a tank through shield wall.

Coordinated correctly, there shouldn't be any MC downtime.
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Postby Unholly » Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:42 pm

This requirement makes it much harder to pug nax25 too. And in a pug there's a lot more pressure on the priests you do get as they're not among a group of people they know and have instanced with but a group of strangers that are not only reliant on them but to whom the smallest mistake is glaringly and instantly obvious (and can lead to wipes).

Wish they'd change it, would make organising 25 pugs a whole lot easier.
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Postby Martie » Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:09 pm

Belloc wrote:
Martie wrote:We had some priests in our guild that weren't sure on how mind control works either.

Some tips for those that still have issues.

Range matters. The farther the trainee is from the controller, the more likely it is to break.
Shadow resistance, when applied to the trainee, makes it harder to keep the mind control up (and as far as I know, they get raid-wide buffs such as auras and totems applied to them.)
You don't have to keep all trainees controlled all the time, and you can break it early. Only the trainee tanking ~needs~ to be controlled.
Make sure tanks know to taunt once the mind control breaks. It's an idea to keep a tank standing next to the priests should this happen.

The problem with tanks taunting is... Rasuvious can one-shot a tank through shield wall.

Coordinated correctly, there shouldn't be any MC downtime.


Not taunting Ras, taunting the trainee that's running to the priest to oneshot it.
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Postby Morganim » Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:54 pm

Belloc wrote:
Morganim wrote:I have nfi what some of your are doing wrong to get 'resists every time' but seriously theres something your not doing right.

We did it this week with 2x holy priests who both went without there hit gear as it was way to much effort to go back to a bank. Once again we 1 shot it and it still remains the easiest fight in naxx.

The Rasuvious encounter suffers from a bug where the mobs can gain a level of shadow resistance that causes issues for priests. Not knowing about this bug can cause major issues for some raids.

The way to fix it is to cast Curse of Elements (or equivalent) on the adds before they get MC'd.


And here i thought chucking CoE on the adds was totaly obvious and everyone would of done it...............
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Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:01 pm

Lore wrote: so if your Priests can't handle MC tanking Razuvious, they need to either learn or be replaced or you will not be able to kill Malygos.


False. We kill Malygos just fine. MC still breaks. One of my priests used to MC back in classic, when we were one of the first guilds in the world to clear content.

It still breaks on him. Yes, even with curses up.

You know why? Because MC is buggy.

What faction are you Morganim? What races are your priests?

Lore wrote:#2: Requiring two Priest is annoying.

Yeah, kinda. There was actually a blue post about it in beta (Kalgan I think). They said they were keeping an eye on it, but didn't think requiring 2 priests was too much of a stretch.


Neither is requiring a warrior for RoS.p2 much of a stretch, and it's not worth kibitzing about, right?

Of course not.

I kind of thought people understood that basing fights around a single class gimmick is just bad encounter design. We didn't like it in RoS, and I don't see why we should give it a pass for Raz, just because it's not a Warrior/Paladin thing. (Heck, warriors even have AoE spell reflect now, so even RoS was no longer an issue as of 3.0).

We've killed Raz every week since WLK launched in spite of dealing with MC problems, so if they never change it, we'll obviously never have problems. I don't have a dog in this fight.

It boils down to: this is a bad design made all the more frustrating to some guilds because they have a solid workaround implemented for 10s. It's been in place long enough so they'll probably never change it, but the encounter design flies entirely in the face of their stated goal of "bring the player, not the class," and "you should never cancel a raid because Jimmy can't make it."

Granted, this isn't entirely the case, as there are at least two workarounds. But the workarounds are kind of dumb, even if they are highly entertaining.

Edit: mage tanking also apparently buggy. Things were going swimmingly for a while. Mage spell steals bone shield with about 15 seconds left on his current shield. Drops dead 5 seconds later.

Went back to the traditional method, using a belf priest to lead off, and had no problems tonight.
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