[10]Naxxramas - Not as Easy as you may have heard..

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, guillex

Postby DMStewart » Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:15 am

Senador wrote:I’m going to boot the next person in a Naxx raid that still has 70 epics, greens and I see “Achievement: Badge of Heroism!” after killing the first boss for the evening after being 80 for over a week…


Hey. I'm still wearing 2 level 70 Epics. Granted, one is a Brewfest Stam trinket, and the other is the SMI, but they are, in fact, level 70 Epics.
Some want to live forever through great deeds, others through their children. I want to live forever through not dying.
DMStewart
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:30 pm
Location: Arizona

Postby Freddman » Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:31 pm

I took my guild about 4 months in the beginning of BC to clear Kara, and about 1½ month to clear ZA.
But in WOTLK, we have cleared Naxx 10 on our first two raids, our first naxx raid took us to horsemen, and on our second we killed Kel on our second try. Once we reached a boss, all would watch Tankspots.com video for that boss, and it was a piece of cake after that.
Only bosses we had many tries on where Grobbulus and Sapphiorn.

On Anub'Rekhan, we don't run away or anything, the MT just stands there tanking Anub, and when it's time for locus swarm, all other then the MT move away, and when the add spawn, OT pulls it away, and the dps just zerg it down. Rinse and repeat :)
Freddman
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:36 am

Postby phaqueue » Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:29 am

Honestly... the thing that struck me the most here from the OP is the whole "our DPS dinged 80 and immediately logged to level alts"

especially since it seems like your tanks and healers actually put time into their gear...

The guild I'm in currently as a friend (my roommate is an officer) is a much more hardcore guild (most of the main raiders were 80 within a week to a week and a half, including the DKs)

Their DPS probably work just as hard as their tanks to get geared... if not harder...

although running DPS meters and competing with each other turns into a big ePeen fest... a lot of times it's good when it gets people to actually care about how much damage they deal...

this is the same guild where we took my mostly blue geared pally tank, with some friends of the guild and some raiders and did the "Make quick werk of him" achievement in 10-man.

It's all about how much people care... if the DPS in your guild don't want to be bothered to get the gear they need to keep up... find new DPS...


There is no reason you should need to take fresh 80's into Naxx just beacuse alts>raiding... if you are serious about raiding... you don't play alts till your gear is where it should be... I'm in full epics, and still not playing my alts...

There is plenty of gear available from heroics that will allow people to succeed fine in Naxx... and it's not hard at all to obtain...

This is just one of my pet peeves... people who expect to be carried through content... you want to see the bosses and get the gear... put in the time to get there...
"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -Douglas Adams
User avatar
phaqueue
 
Posts: 1222
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:45 am

Postby Amarant_Pally » Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:46 am

Recount/WWS isn't just for E-peen (although that value alone should always push DPS'ers to "do better"). It's for evaluation of your DPS'ers (and Healers if need be). WWS reports do a better job on the "evaluation" bit, but linking Recount and saying, "Hey Joe Shmoe, why so low?" should get an immediate response (albeit one you might not like).
Amarant_Pally
 
Posts: 631
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 2:53 pm

Postby mirkodeluxe » Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:09 am

I never considered myself to be hardcore as I cant really raid more than 2 days a week on a regular basis due to, among other things, my need for 10-12 hours sleep per night. But it seems I am.

Being hardcore has exactly nothing to do with skill or preparedness.
If anything, players who deem themselves to be casual should prepare even more before they start raiding.

For me, being hardcore means that you spend whatever time it takes to kill the bosses you havent downed yet instead of just farming easy shit.
We downed malygos yesterday after about 10 tries on our first night of trying the 25-man version (we had to post signups for naxx25 to get enough healers to signup though which is very sad since it means that some of my favourite healers are epicwhores) instead of just going naxx for essentially free epixx. That is hardcore raiding.
Reading tactics, stocking up on consumables, gearing up and knowing your role, rotations, not to stand in shit etc is NOT being hardcore. Its just common sense.
If common sense somehow eludes your guildies then I suggest you point it out, give them a chance to improve. If they dont I think you should politely ask them to leave if you take raiding even mildly seriously.
Image
mirkodeluxe
 
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:14 am
Location: The Maelstrom EU

Postby phaqueue » Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:37 am

I love seeing the "we're casual that's why you have better progression" guilds...

especially since most of them raid 4-5 nights a week for longer than our guild does... and they drop less content...

it's not about time spent... it's about how you spend that time...

if you have better players, they know their classes better, and you optimize the time you spend... you will drop the bosses.

It's all about people realizing that instead of leveling alts...they should be spending the time on their mains...

If your main isn't geared, and you make the excuse that you don't have time because of RL... why are you leveling an alt instead of running things to get gear on your main?

For example... I work 40 hours a week, I am in the Army National Guard, and I am going to school also, yet I still have time to get gear on my main - because I haven't played any other toons right now... when I'm on - I"m playing my main trying to gear him...

This is one of those attitudes that really annoys me... it annoyed me moreso when I was a raider, but still bothers me when people go "I can't have decent gear/learn to play my class because I don't put that much time into this game"
"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -Douglas Adams
User avatar
phaqueue
 
Posts: 1222
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:45 am

Postby Mehnalas » Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:38 am

Lazy dps seem to be the source of many problems. Its especially frustrating when you have 2 unholy DKs of very similar gear and one has top damage, the other below tanks. I'm thinking about just booting incompetent people from raids, but replacing people takes time.
Lore(lol) wrote:Short answer: No.

Long answer: Nope.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n=Mehnalas
User avatar
Mehnalas
 
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 7:54 am

Postby phaqueue » Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:05 am

Mehnalas wrote:Lazy dps seem to be the source of many problems. Its especially frustrating when you have 2 unholy DKs of very similar gear and one has top damage, the other below tanks. I'm thinking about just booting incompetent people from raids, but replacing people takes time.


wiping then replacing good players who are frustrated takes longer... and is less productive
"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -Douglas Adams
User avatar
phaqueue
 
Posts: 1222
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:45 am

3 weeks later update

Postby melkior » Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:52 am

Greetings,

Well a few weeks later things have changed a bit.

Firstly I found out one of the "DPS" DK's decided he was going to "tank" and respec'd without telling anyone and was in 50% DPS gear and 50% Tank gear. He's also one of the "I dinged 80 and logged to an alt" people so he is no longer getting raid invites until he gears correctly for whatever spec he wants to use.

I learned this by going to wow-heroes.com (Currently their database is down so you may have to go to wowheroes.info instead) That site was very useful in helping me figure out who in my guild was drastically undergeared and focus in on why - lack of runs, lack of time on their main, or lack of understanding about gear (not enough hit, etc).

As a guild/raid leader struggling to figure out why DPS performance was bad this was a nice overview tool for me and helped get me on track instead of just saying "dude your dps is only 1000 and you should be double that."

Secondly when I log on each evening as one of the MT's of the guild I just get the heroics going and tell people they are coming. Nicely enough 99% of the time they come along and everything works out - and a couple of people get drops.

As a result in the time between my last post our average DPS has gone from the 1100-1200 range to around 2000 range. We do have some people who peaked at as much as 5800.

So now we have taken down Sartherion (OS 10 man) and cleared 6 bosses in Naxx.

As a note; we only raid Naxx on Saturday's for 4-5 hours total. So we don't log on every night and hack away at learning fights for hours on end.

I'm now feeling pretty optimistic that given our limited raiding schedule we will probably clear Naxx in about 4-5 more weeks. Maybe a little longer.

Despite many protestations in this tread, I stick by my original post title; Naxx may be not be as easy as you have been lead to believe.

There are multiple people talking about dinging 80, respecing and 3 minutes later walking into nax and succeeding. I'm sure you did - I trust you to tell the truth about it however; I also know that not every one is doing that, and the 'buzz' that its so easy is one factor that contributes to people thinking everyone can just ding 80 and clear nax without further work.

I hope the discussion (at least the positive and debate portions) in this thread hope people who are struggling with entry level raiding in Wrath and let you know you aren't alone. Keep gearing up, use sites like wow-heroes.com to evaluate your guilds progression and gear levels. Evaluate and analyze performance in the raids with DPS meters and reports .. keep working on it and you can start breaking in - it just takes time!

Good luck!
melkior
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:14 pm

Postby Discus » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:24 am

Despite many protestations in this tread, I stick by my original post title; Naxx may be not be as easy as you have been lead to believe.

Yay! That's so refreshing to hear on here. We tried naxx for the first time at the weekend - mostly relatively new 80s, downed patchwerk but gave in on anu B. Didn't know tactics. Do now thanks to tankspot video.

In my opinion the difficulty is just right - it's a challenge without requiring 8 hours a day play time.

Now, Kara after patch 3.0 was what I'd call easy.[/i]
Discus
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:28 am

Postby Ashmadai » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:24 am

You certainly don't need to be hardcore for any of the current raid content, whatsoever. My 10 man guild is just a bunch of friends from RL and people we've met on WoW. Sure, we're all really great players who know our classes inside and out, gear properly, etc., but nobody would accuse us of 'hardcore play times.'

We raid a total of 9 hours a week. 3 raid days, 3 hours each. We cleared every raid except Naxx the first time we stepped in(everything but Kel'thuzad the first time, ran out of time as nobody had done 40 man so we had to learn strats)

In a couple weeks we should have Sarth+3 down, which is the only thing we have left. It's not a matter of being hardcore if the players are good and actually care about carrying their weight.
Image
Ashmadai
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:50 pm

Postby Spectrum » Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:28 am

I'm now leading Naxx raids for my guild with half PUGs (we field 4-6 people).

Just watch the tankspot videos, bring at least two healers, and try to find good DPS if you're pugging (I look for 1500+ in heroics).

Two weeks ago we cleared up to Grobbulus and 4HM, and cleared the other two quarters. Never more than 1 wipe per boss except on Grobbulus.

Last week we cleared all four quarters and ran into issues on Sapphiron because one of our healers quit and we couldn't get a good replacement.

The key really is to read WoWWiki, watch videos from tankspot, and read up on the bosses. They're complicated, but most are easy if you a group that reacts quickly and can follow detailed directions.

Remember the golden rules of raiding:

If it is burning, stay away from it.
If it is a green cloud, stay out of it.
If there is stuff falling from the sky, get out from under it.
If there are adds, pick them up.
Spectrum
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1488
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:40 pm
Location: Silvermoon, Alliance

Postby Splug » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:56 pm

Mehnalas wrote:Lazy dps seem to be the source of many problems. Its especially frustrating when you have 2 unholy DKs of very similar gear and one has top damage, the other below tanks.
While it sounds like there are other factors at play here, there is a bug caused by having multiple unholy deathknights in the raid. Ebon Plaguebringer is intended to count as a third disease, giving a damage bonus to the applying deathknight's scourge strike, blood boil, and blood strike damage. However, the debuff is unique, so only one player in the raid gets benefit from it. It's not going to make a 1k dps difference, but it does cause problems and impairs one (or both) of their damage output.

-Splug
Active raid character: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... an&n=Spyte
255 characters is not enough to fit my alts' armories in.
User avatar
Splug
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:16 am

Postby Arcand » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:19 pm

I didn't see this anyplace else - when you're controlling Understudies, the correct order is Bone Armor - Taunt.

Taunt-Bone Armor is a good way to take an unmitigated hit, which is like giving Raz about seven free seconds to beat on your understudy. Give him nothing. And take from him, everything. :)
Arcand
Moderator
 
Posts: 4525
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:15 am

Postby sudojoe » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:06 am

find good DPS if you're pugging (I look for 1500+ in heroics).


very good rule to go by if you ask me. I also have an 80 DK dps toon I keep around and while I started heroics doing ~1k dps, I quickly moved to 1500-1700 territory after doing a cookie cutter spec and spent a day or 2 running heroics to learn my rotations.

now I can do 1900-2200's easily in all heroics even with lv78 weapons. BUT without that few heroic running days, I'd be hard pressed to do much better even with a good spec.

I recommend that for the subaverage dps'ers, take some time to find the ones that are willing to respec, and run some easy heroics with them. Everyone gets better gear hopefully and should help alot. DON'T expect them to suddenly get good just when they respec, they gotta know their rotations.

Frankly, I've pugged with so many 800 dps pugger dps's it's getting to be a very short list of people I want to pug with lately.
sudojoe
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:25 am

PreviousNext

Return to T7: Naxx / Maly / Sarth / Archavon

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest