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[25]OS-Hard Mode

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Postby enbee » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:43 am

The easiest way to avoid(see) fissures is to put your spell detail settings on low.

We finally killed them aswell yesterday, after changing around the tanking ..

Our other paladin tank was failing badly at aoe tanking (priests dying to adds pretty much every try), I took over on that and we killed him 2nd try :)
A DK tank on sarth is nice btw, it allows you to do the following :

Bring 5 healers, nuke tenebron, shadron lands : heroism + nuke shadron -> take the portal kill all adds, then kill vesperon and take the portal for the 2nd time. A DK tank has enough cooldowns to avoid gib breaths in combination with some bosac + shieldwall from me and a guardians spirit from a priest.

sooooooooo glad we got this over with.. server 8th lol :(
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Postby Karador » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:45 pm

Got a Realm first last night after I suggested that we try a unholy DK on sarth for the oh shit buttons ( which were so full of win its sick ) prot pally on adds and prot war / prot pally on drakes.

Ignore the portals till the first 2 drakes are down then play clean up on the adds and go from there.
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Postby Morganim » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:29 am

Finally got this down tonight.
Should of had it weeks and weeks ago, but its taken this long to get everyone online due to xmas and ny holidays and all that bullshit.

Really wasnt a very hard fight once you learnt the basics of it, cant compare it to pre-nerf muru or KJ imho. Maybe more felmyst
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Postby knaughty » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:42 am

I was AFK, but guild tried this tonight for the first time.

First pull of +3 to dead sarth? 1 hr 48 mins. :shock:

We did 10-man on the weekend so some people had experience of that, including the MT. But yeah, it isn't M'uru.
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Postby Joanadark » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:12 pm

Each clear is exponentially easier with each reset for the simple reason of the gear upgrades from naxx each week. Naxx drops a TON of loot, which, combined with valor tokens, has an extraordinary effect on my guild's DPS.
My own personal DPS went up by over a thousand from one week to the next when I got a new weapon and a couple non-set items from the weekly naxx clear.

The most difficult element of the 3-drake fight, the DPS check, is significantly reduced from back when we were mostly in level 70 gear and wondering how this was supposed to be beaten.
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Postby Splug » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:37 pm

There's also some time that does get sunk into actual strategy formulation and kill order, which in your case was already drawn from OS10. That just leaves everyone knowing the base encounter mechanics, which would be something you'd learn from having a one or two drakes in 25 the previous weeks. This encounter wasn't earthshatteringly difficult even early on, but coming in after already having completed the ten-man equivalent is going to make it seem pretty easy. ;)

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Postby knaughty » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:16 pm

Joanadark wrote:The most difficult element of the 3-drake fight, the DPS check, is significantly reduced from back when we were mostly in level 70 gear and wondering how this was supposed to be beaten.
Splug wrote:There's also some time that does get sunk into actual strategy formulation and kill order, which in your case was already drawn from OS10. That just leaves everyone knowing the base encounter mechanics, which would be something you'd learn from having a one or two drakes in 25 the previous weeks.

It does put early estimates of "ZOMG! M'uru" in perspective.
• There's some Ildari Council style "Don't stand in shit" stuff for the raid to do.
• There's a somewhat stressful healer check, but only because of...
• A mid-to-high grade DPS check. It isn't a Brutallus level DPS check, but it is hard enough that you can't stack healers. We lost 3 DPS on the kill.
• There's some moderately difficult tanking.
º Add pickup is fairly stressful.
º Drake tanking is easy for me, harder for a warrior: TPS issues coping with You've had one GCD, inc Bloodlust and hold 2nd drake with minimal passive TPS without losing first drake that has a hard-core burn going on. Warrior had to spec and gear for TPS. I can just do normal build and have enough TPS, and can hold 2nd drake with one judgement/hammer and passive TPS.
º MT duty requires significant CD management (we make the bear tank call CDs in) combined with Clear Debuff during the cast-bar.
Splug wrote:This encounter wasn't earthshatteringly difficult even early on, but coming in after already having completed the ten-man equivalent is going to make it seem pretty easy.

From the perspective of people who'd done 10-man, it was a bit of a joke.

M'uru is the only fight I've done that is this complex. There is a lot going on and a lot of shit for people to do, and it is unusual to test so many different things at once. It just isn't tuned anywhere near as tight as M'uru was.
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Postby Salamandra » Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:46 pm

Kil'jaeden was more complex than M'uru. M'uru wasn't really complicated. Things can be difficult to do without being complicated.

Picking up whelps/elementals is very simple, but not exactly easy.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:28 pm

I hate that you can't see spawns on one quarter of the platform if you're on the other side.

I hate that we haven't done s+3 yet because of holidays and our server is fucking ridiculous and laggy, and every time a wintergrasp starts the server shits itself. We've done S+2 for the last two weeks with shit comps (22 people this week, 24+shit comp+socials last week). Here's hoping we get a stable server and decent raid comp this next week.

M'uru was very well tuned, and it was tough because the demands were so incredibly high. KJ had a lot going on, and everyone had to know what the fuck was going on pretty much all the time; dps mindlessly attacking KJ and ignoring orbs meant you were going to fail, so dps had to actually really pay attention to which target they were attacking.

I've noticed that some DPS tends to look at encounters as "boss+adds are X amount of HP, so as long as we do X amount of damage, it doesn't much matter what I'm attacking, as all my damage goes into the Big Pot, and as long as we fill up the pot, we win." I know I started to see that a lot way back when we stopped using CC in heroics, back in the summer of 07 or so. This approach didn't work in KJ. There was a definite inverse relationship between how focused the raid DPS was, and how quickly the raid died. I liked that about that fight, even though by the time we go KJ I hated the encounter passionately.

Add control is usually very simple, but yes, not exactly easy, especially when you have healers who like to land really big heals right when something spawns right next to them. This is one fight for which I actually really like Imp HoJ and 2/2 Imp Judge.

Our GM keeps trying to do S+3 on Tuesday; I always argue that everything becomes easier after farming 62 pieces of loot out of Naxx. On the down side, we then have problems putting together a decent OS raid ...

Ah well.

It's nice to have something interesting like this to do while we wait for more content. I'm glad they're continuing with the 'hard mode' options.

I wonder how much content they'll have available for each tier. Back in the day we occasionally had to choose between farming BWL and working on progression in AQ because there just weren't enough raid days in our schedule. It'd be interesting to have that problem again.

Part of me thinks it'd be nice to have shared loot tables in different instances, so you could choose which raid to do from week to week, to prevent burn out. On the other hand, with week long lockouts and Naxx being a single night clear, burn out is much less of an issue. Maybe it helps that Naxx is a lot more interesting than, say, MC or AQ40 (both of which are terrible from a design perspective). Naxx could use some variety, but the 5 wing design provides some variation. I always liked BT, and SWP was so short it wasn't very horrible.

Anyway, I appear to be drunk.
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Postby Rhivath » Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:02 am

Warning: Skipped posts, so if some of this is repeated info I'm sorry!

We got realm first 3-drake Sarth kill in 25-man after about 4 hours of wipes, using the "Fusion" style of positioning (our style was a bit worse and cramped, this is much nicer/cleaner). We used a feral druid for Sarth, an unholy death knight for spawns, prot warrior for Shadron briefly, then spawns... and myself, prot paladin for Tenebron/Vesperon, and Shadron.

We brought only 6 healers (3 shaman, 1 priest, 2 paladin), using 1 paladin for Sarth tank, one paladin for drake tank (me), priest for drake help, shaman for Sarth help, shaman on raid, and shaman on raid + portal healing. Rest of the raid was mix of caster/melee dps, with more of a melee focus by 1-2 classes.

Druid put Sarth in position, and I went to wait for Tenebron... we killed Tenebron just about the time when Shadron lands, using Heroism around 80% on him. When Shadron landed, the warrior picked him up and I moved toward the druid (Sarth tank), and when Vesperon had 30sec to land, used BoSacrifice + Divine Shield (have Divine Guardian) to give the druid -60% dmg intake for intial breath.

Once my cooldowns were over, first paladin used DS + Sacrifice on the druid (followed by other holy pally doing the same, then the druid using barkskin/trinkets, to help prevent dmg intake with 2 drakes down), and I picked up Vesperon + taunted Shadron. Shadron dies about ~30sec after Vesperon is on the ground, with me tanking both drakes.

Once Shadron died, all melee dps went to portal, killed the mobs there, then came back up, going down the portal everytime... eventually Vesperon died and it was just watching adds and easy from there out, with me popping Sacrifice/Divine Shield again at 10% to negate almost all the dmg to Druid and stop a ton of dmg to raid.

Tips we learned from the night, for our guild at least:
1) Adds can be a problem, make sure ranged are on top of it, and hunters tranq shot or rogues anesthic the enraged elementals.
2) All players have to be spot on and near perfect, any attempt where even one person died or DC'd, we struggled before a wipe.
3) Spell details to lowest setting, as well as names off, and using DBM, all increase your survival because it makes void zones, lava wave, and spotting adds much easier.
4) Hand of Sacrifice is amazing if you can use it well, most of us overlooked this til I brought it up as a way to keep the druid alive (after the ~7th wipe where he got one shot by a 50k breath).
5) Divine Guardian, while debated, has come in handy at least once a raid night, if not multiple times, for me, since our guild is equal-opportunity for tanking any raid boss, and it helps guarnatee a win.

I don't know if that will help anyone, but the joy of having beaten this after a few hours hard work (after a couple weeks wiping to bad posiitons) was certainly a rush... can't wait for Ulduar.
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Postby towelliee » Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:51 am

We used 4 tanks in our fight.

DK - Boss
Warrior on Adds
Pally on Drakes
Warrior on drakes

What we did was I would tank Tenebron. If we didn't have him down by time Shadron came down the 4th tank would be tanking it ahead of me. I would taunt off him and he would go to vesperons spot and start tanking him in his spot once again I would taunt of him.

We just downed it on Monday
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Sarth 2D

Postby omni » Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:03 pm

We got [25] Sarth + 2D down after much wiping last night. Because we did 2 instead of 3 we didn't have to worry about an instagib on the Sarth tank...that challenge is for next week. Here are some lessons learned:

1) First priority is to learn to avoid the fire wall and void zones. This simply takes practice on behalf of the entire raid. There's a lot going on. Announcing flame-walls over vent helps considerably. Because it's a DPS race it's easy to become fixated on the button mash rotation and miss what's going on around you. Staying alive is the only thing more important than DPS.

2) Paladins and Warriors are the two best choices as fire/whelp tanks simply due to our ability to block, although all tanking classes are viable. I stacked block value and took very little damage from whelps. This enabled us to accumulate adds while dps focused on drakes. BV gear is a little hard to come by in WotlK, but if you can get to around 1600-1800 buffed BV you'll be in good shape even if you sacrifice significant hunks of dodge and health. Just be careful not to sacrifice too much armor in seeking BV. I swapped in my T5 headpiece with a northrend 5% BV meta gem to help push things along. The good news is that the blues with BV tend to be laden with defense, so you should have no problem maintaining uncrit. If things get tight on defense, remember that adds are lvl 82, so you only need 535 skill; not 540. (At least I'm pretty certain - can anyone confirm they're 82?)

2) A holy pali with Righteous Fury on really helps picking up adds. Just don't forget to taunt off him / her periodically. The holy pali would also lay a concencrate staggered spatially from mine, so that between the two of us we covered a wide area in front of the portal. The holy pali would use his taunt to save cloth healers. When a wave of whelps spawned, we would follow this order of operations:
a) Holy pali and Prot pali both lay conc if it's not already down
b) We both use the next gcd to taunt spare whelps aggrod on healers
c) Frisbee / Judge a spare add or two if they're still running around
d) Tank uses next taunt cd to pull things from the holy paly.
e) Use third taunt to pull off a hunter pet, or anyone else that helped round up a loose add.

With beacon of light and zero spell pushback, the holy pali can hold quite a few adds, so prioritize taunts for other healers in case any get loose. If things get really crazy due to a badly timed firewall, it might be worth sparing a hunter's dps to help round up roaming adds. A hunter can buy you time to get 2nd on the threat list for an add or two and then FD, so that you don't need to burn a taunt nor burn their MD, which is better used for drake pickup.

Accumulate as many adds as you can, blow a few survival cooldowns, and then ask for AOE to mow them down as late as possible so that drakes are the priority for DPS.

3) Timing concencrate is crucial. Instead of spamming on every CD, I would make sure I had the spell available to place down just before the flame wall, so that I could safely leave the portal area if needed. I'm going to look into the glyph of conc. for our Drake 3D attempt. There's only one place you'll ever need to lay it down, so increased duration can be helpful when you need to run from the flame wall.

4) Once the first drake is down, dps and a healer will start taking portals. There are two things to get used to during such portal phases:

First, those left on the outside will be subject to much more frequent void zones per person, since there are fewer folks for it to target. Watch your feet, and watch your healers. My healer got triple targeted by void zones and had to move instead of heal. Having a trinket for those moments can be useful...if you're aware of they're happening. Consider researching HealCommLib to make it easy to know when you have incoming heals queued.

Second, make sure those in the portal don't kill the mob during a flamewall. They'll be popped into normal space just in time to be wiped by the wall. Voice communication solves this rather easily.

That's about all I have to share at this point in time. It's a very fun fight with a few drakes up, although our Sarth MT was probably bored. It will be all the more engaging with three drakes.
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Postby amh » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:48 pm

Got it tonight, absolutely amazing fight!
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Postby Worldie » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:17 pm

Stupid question incoming:
Assuming Sarth breaths up to 72k damage when all acolytes are up, a Paladin with 18% (i know slightly less, but let's assume that) magic damage reduction would get hit for 59k damage.
This means that to survive a hit with Hand/Roar of Sacrifice up a Paladin would need 40k HP but... not even a druid can get that high HP and the druid would be even taking more damage... or i'm missing something in this?
So, i'd assume this is the worse worse worse case and that would RNG down even a druid, and usually a powerful breath will hit for 60k, reduced to 49k, further reduced to 34k, which is absorbeable easily with a power word shield.

So, am i fine to tank this crap with 43k+ raidbuffed HP? (translated to 33k after aura) or i need more?
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Postby kram » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:12 pm

We have warriors tank it with ~42k hp buffed. I dont recommend just using Hand of Sacrifice alone (we always use a Divine Guardian with it (the holy paladins can survive taking the points out of ret for it).

On average we use 2 CDs durring the Shadron+Vesperon phase.
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