[10] Sartharion with 3 drakes

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Postby Daida » Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:12 pm

Short question:

Is it possible to survive the breaths with only druid barkskin, druid last stand and pain suppression as mitigation abilities? how many breaths are we facing, assuming 4.500 dps in a 5 dd setup, 3 healer (one hybrid, nuking at tenebron, healing while 2 drakes are up), 2 tank setup?
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Postby arilink » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:39 pm

Stop being lazy and start calculating it yourself >.>
That said you will get 1-2 breaths depending on RNG.
The maximum breath damage on your barkskinned druid is at 41580 ( 40333 assuming BoSanc/Vigilance).
Guess Pain Suppression is safe #1 and a barkskin/last stand combo #2.

Actually I'd advise bringing 6 DPS (including 1 class that could heal in the portal).
This way we managed to down Tenebron right before Shadron landed quite often (with Bloodlust).
Translated that's 4.5k+ dps each.
The goal thereafter is to kill Shadron before Vesperon's Acolyte spawns or shortly after.
Sadly our DPS isn't the best ... and the last try on which we killed Shadron ended with melee dps dying of the acolytes because the heal-assinged elemental shaman was busy spamming lightning bolts >.>

Btw could anyone link some WWS?
Wtb ways to improve our dps.
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Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:14 am

We completed this last night in 3 attempts with an interesting strategy. I fondly called it "tank roulette." Here's the group comp, it was a 3 tank / 2 healer setup:

DK sarth tank
Druid drake tank
Me tanking blazes and whelps

Disc priest on the DK
Holy paladin on the druid/myself

2x Elemental Shaman
2x Mage
Shadow Priest

Obviously we stacked ranged dps for this, and we would have been better served swapping one of the Mages out for a boomkin or Warlock for better buff synergy, but we worked with what we had.

Originally, the plan was to mimic our 25-man strategy: Burn Tenebron, aoe whelps, burn Shadron, kill acolytes, kill Vesperon, kill Sarth. However, we made some minor tweaks to the strategy to fit the group.
  • First of all, I suggested we skip the whelps entirely and just go Tenebron->Shadron->acolytes->Vesperon. Why?
    • The blazes melee for around 1500, and with 2k buffed block value pre-libram, they don't actually cause any damage. In addition, they die fairly quickly to Holy Shield + Consecrate + HotR as long as they're not enraged, so they weren't a problem.
    • After testing this out on our first attempt, I found that the whelps weren't really any worse than the blazes. I don't remember what they hit for, but it was weak enough that I never needed more healing than Beacon to keep me up. On our kill, the last few whelps died shortly after I picked Vesperon off of the druid.
    By letting the DPS ignore them entirely, we bought ourselves more face time with Shadron, speeding things up a bit and letting us avoid some extra Twilight Torment damage, as well as reducing the dual-drake cooldown window.
  • With an all-caster group, tanking the acolytes would be a problem. This is where "tank roulette" comes in. We swapped around tanks as follows:
    • Once Shadron was down, I taunted Vesperon and tanked the drake + blazes while the druid went down to tank the acolytes
    • Once the acolytes were dead, the druid taunted Sarth off of the DK since the spell-damage-heavy part of the fight was over
    • DK tanked the rest of the acolytes, and after Vesperon was dead I just tanked blazes.
    On our kill, it was actually a bit more hectic, because we lost the shadow priest at some point during the Vesperon burn. So I actually taunted Sarth and tanked him for around 30 seconds while the druid shifted out, battle ressed, and helped the DK control the whelps. Once we did that, we were just going to have me finish tanking Sarth while the druid and DK handled the blazes, but they were having a little trouble keeping them under control, so the druid and I swapped places again, and I finished the fight out tanking the blazes while the DK helped out on DPS.

I can upload a WWS if people are interested, but from my recollection (which is a bit fuzzy, since we were doing this at 1am) we were downing Tenebron about 5-10 seconds after Shadron landed, without a 2nd whelp spawn. I want to say we saved Heroism for Shadron, but to be honest I don't remember at this point. I'd have to check the WWS.

Working through the math, with 1.2M HP, and 45 seconds between drakes, you need ~26k DPS to take Tenebron down before Shadron lands, obviously that gets relaxed a bit if you allow for 2 drakes to be alive simultaneously for a short period (21k dps for 55 seconds). With 5 DPS, that means each DPS needs to be pulling around 4k DPS on Tenebron, plus around 1-2k from the tank.

I have to say, I actually find this fight to be easier than the 25-man version from the blaze/whelp tank's perspective. There are fewer blazes, which is nice because it means you don't need as many different skills to pick them all up (at least one taunt was almost always off of cooldown, and I only needed AS once or twice to pick up packs of 2-3 blazes at range). In addition, fewer players on the battlefield makes visibility far better, simplifying both add pick-up and void zone awareness. It was actually surprisingly easy to pick up the blazes while tanking Vesperon. I thought I'd have more trouble, but with most of the people in the portal, the blazes tended to stick to the holy paladin, so I could easily RD off of him using Grid.

All in all, it was a lot of fun, and surprisingly easy compared to other (weaker) group comps I've tried it with in the past, mostly due to proper raid-stacking and synergy. Attempts that had a mixture of physical and spell damage always seemed to be less successful. I can imagine a similarly stacked melee DPS group doing well too, but the small hitbox size of the drakes is a real drawback because of void zones.

Two blessings certainly helped, dual heroisms meant no waiting between attempts, and from what they tell me dual mana-tide really helped our longevity. However, everyone seemed to agree that the single biggest thing that made this attempt successful compared to previous attempts was swapping the usual whelp tank (a warrior) for a paladin, because of the ability to effectively ignore all of the adds entirely. The warrior's (arguably) better snap-aggro tools just didn't compare to being able to single-handedly tank and kill all of the blazes and whelps.

It probably didn't hurt that I have a lot of practice picking up blazes from our 25-man attempts, while the warrior usually tanks drakes. The whelp tank really does play a pivotal role in this encounter, and it's something that you only really get the hang of with lots and lots of practice.
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Postby wingman » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:51 am

Downed this last night after a few nights of attempts. Our guild tried in earnest Sunday and Monday night. Made some progress each night, to the point we even killed Vesperon a time or two, but had some healer/dps deaths due to poor positioning. After clearing all 25 man content in a night and a half, tweaked our strat a little and went back in to finish off 3 drakes 10 man. Our raid comp was:

Sarth tank - Unholy DK
Drake tank - Prot paly (me)
Add tank - Prot paly

Disc Priest on Sartharion tank
Resto Shaman on other 2 tanks

Elem Shaman - switched to raid healing once Vesperon landed
Shadow Priest
Blood DK

Here's a WWS link if you'd like:

In previous nights, we were trying to 2 heal the place, and maybe have the shadow priest toss a heal or 2, but it just wasn't effective. Lots of deaths to twilight torment and just too much of a strain on 2 healers to keep the whole raid alive. We replaced a pure dps with the hybrid shaman and it made a huge difference. We all out DPS Tenebron when he landed. I popped wings and built as big a threat lead as possible. I believe he was at about 25-30% when Shadron. Once Shadron landed I switched to him, using HoR and consecrate to maintain my threat lead on Tenebron. Once Tenebron was down, I kited Shadron to where Vesp lands, raid popped heroism, warlock and spriest switched to aoe on adds, everyone else stayed on Shadron. Popped bubble wall once Vesp became active. Used all dmg reduction abilities I could (sacred shield, armor pot, trinket, healthstone) cuz 2 drake breaths plus twilight torment hurts alot. Once Shadron was down, we were basically home free. The one thing we did notice was adds seemed to get a little heavy with all dps on drakes, so once Vesperon was at about 50%, we had a couple dps clear up the adds. This backfired a little as our shadow priest died from twilight torment dmg on her aoe. Still, it was an acceptable trade as no adds were up and the fight at this point was under control. With Vesperon dead, I went in the portal w/ the ele shaman healing, tanked acolytes. Got a tiny bit unlucky here as our DPS DK got too close to Sarth and died from his breath as he was trying to get in the portal. Once acolytes were dead, I taunted Sarth off the DK tank and tanked him the rest of the way. The DK and prot paly controlled adds/DPS Sarth. At this point the healers were definitely hurting for mana. I used LoH on the priest for some extra mana. WWS shows 1950, but he says he got alot more than that from it and basically was the difference maker. Anyway, was a challenging fight, very nice to get this done, sorry if I rambled on a bit much, but there's my experience with the whole encounter.
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Postby inthedrops » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:07 am

Nice job wingman. We finally got this last night using a similar setup and strat.

Raid makeup:
* 3 tank (warrior/warrior/paladin)
* 3 healer (paladin/shaman/priest)
* 4 dps (warlock, boomkin x2, priest).

Assignments were:
Warrior on Sartharian. Warrior on all three drakes. Paladin on adds. Paladin healer on drake and add tank. Priest on Sarth tank. Shaman dps'ing until twilight torment then switched to full time healing.

Heroism to kill Tenebron ensuring only one set of whelps, then kill whelps plus whatever lava adds are up at the time, then kill Shadron, then clean up adds again, then kill portal acolytes, then burn Vesperon completely, then kill portal acolytes once more, then Sartharian.

We had good control but it was slow going. Total fight took 11 minutes. WWS link if it helps anyone.
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Postby Loras » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:48 am

How did you handle the Breaths then? With such a long fight?

Also, question:

Made a set for the fight, a bit crittable (like 0.8% or so, but... Gotta risk it), about 43 - 43.4k fully raid buffed before aura (if the warriors keeps Comm shout on me). 180 fire res with aura and flask.Thinking of using the following setup:

Tanks: Me (Sarth tank), Warrior (drake tank), Paladin (add tank)
Healers: 1 holy pala for drake + add tank, 1 holy priest (too bad we dont have any disciplines in the guild) for me, 1 shaman healer to dps a bit and then switch healing
DPS: Heavy caster group - elemental shaman, warlock, boomkin, mage

Thinking of handling cooldowns this way: 1st - bubblewall (if 2nd one comes during those 12 sec, that would be lovely). 2nd - Hand of Sacrifice + Divine shield from the paladin (+PW:Shield if needed for extra absorb), 3rd - Divine Guardian from the priest, 4th - well, pray there will be no forth :) Fire absorb pot + PW:Shield + Nightmare seed and a devoted prayer if it comes. And if Shadron aint dead by then - wipe wipe wipe my darling...

Do you think that setup and plan would work, got any recommendations and/or ideas how it can be improved, etc?
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Postby inthedrops » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:38 am

Loras wrote:How did you handle the Breaths then? With such a long fight

Vesperon was alive for 6 minutes and 15 seconds (1 minute and 15 seconds longer than Wingman's WWS). But unlike Wingmans kill, we went downstairs to kill the acolytes before DPS'ing Vesperon. So it's possible we had to worry about fewer TT'd breaths and also gave people's cooldowns a chance to become available again. I really couldn't say without parsing the WWS reports and I'm too lazy. I don't know how long it is until the acolytes respawn.

Since I wasn't a part of the flame breath cool downs I honestly don't know how they worked it.

I do know that the tank used his final cooldown on the sartharians last breath. Which consisted of a +health trinket and popping a healthstone.

Loras wrote:1 holy priest (too bad we dont have any disciplines in the guild) for me

Our holy priest specs discipline just for this encounter. The tank would die sometimes when the healer had to move to avoid flamewall. After respeccing that never happened again and Sarth tank deaths were no longer happening. They were an issue otherwise.

I'm not as knowledgeable as others about the nuances of tanking sarth and managing cooldowns. I'm always doing drakes or the adds.
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Postby Loras » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:57 am

inthedrops wrote:
Loras wrote:1 holy priest (too bad we dont have any disciplines in the guild) for me

Our holy priest specs discipline just for this encounter.

Yeah, I can make her respec with no problems (just for the fight, though, and maybe without changing glyphs). The thing about respeccing that worries me is that she has never played Discipline. If I were to respec healer now, I would be the worst healer on the planet even if I have T8...
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Postby Worldie » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:17 am

If she played holy, discipline aint far off, spam bubbles and penance with flash heals in between and greater heals if you really need to.
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Postby inthedrops » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:23 am

I asked about cooldowns. I guess I didn't correctly understand the time period in which they were necessary. I was told the following:

* We start using cooldowns when Twilight Torment appears, and "stop" when Shadron dies (the stopping when Shadron dies is the part I didn't realize). Cooldowns activated just before a breath (obviously).
* The holy paladin used her cooldown for the first breath.
* Then the warrior uses shield wall which usually lasts for two.
* Then the warrior uses last stand + fire pot.
* Then the priest uses his.
* Then the warrior uses his trinket.

After that we're screwed.
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Postby Dokidoki » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:23 pm

Hi, Im relatively new to 3 drake sarth on 10 man and I was put on whelp/fire add duty.

I'm having trouble picking everything up and I'm getting a lot of flak for it from the GL. I don't seem to have trouble with the fire adds, but the whelps run loose every time.

I started putting consecrate on a healer, but the first time I did it he moved, and the second time the whelps ran to the other healer.

I honestly have no clue how to get the whelps on me without gibbing the healers.

Should I just bop a healer? or do I tell them to stand together?

I've been using any aoe type abilities I've got but they just run straight through consecrate.
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Postby Avengeance » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:48 pm

Try put a consec on the portal instead (might be difficult if a flamewall just happens to block your way). If not, put one between the portal and the healer (prefably a RF holy pally). Remember, there arent many that actually spawn, i think if i remember theres 6, so use RD + Avengers shield + single taunt should be enough if they do miss consec (they rarely aggro 6 diff targets, so RD is guarentee to pick 2-3).
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Postby Dalithe » Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:28 am

Just got this recently and wow does it feel like a load off our shoulders.

Glyph of Consecration is a wonderful tool for whelps on this fight, it lets you drop a consecration that will last through a Flame Wave. Our healers would always stand in the middle with the one that causes the most healing threat (resto druid for us) marked. Throughout the fight, whatever I was doing I would run to him and drop a consecration on him then go run around, help dps, kill elementals, etc.

Whoever does the most healing threat of your healers it helps to have them targeted, and if somethin' gets on them you can BoP them quick. But your healers (both) need to be smart enough to stand in consecration, and you need to drop consecration on them as much as possible, no reason to use it anywhere else but on the healers.

Big point is dropping consecration near the portal and the healers standing in consecration on the far end of it so that the whelps run through it, HotR and AS into as well as well as having AW up for pick up.

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Postby Salamandra » Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:36 am

Did this a few days ago, had me as drakes and adds tank, prot Warrior as Sartharion tank. Holy Paladin and Holy Priest as healers, 1 death knight dps and 5 caster dps. Warrior tank died a little bit after Shadron died, I automatically had aggro due to magical powers apparently. I then tanked both Vesperon and Sartharion until the kill, while the prot warrior was battle resurrected to pick up the adds.
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Postby Loras » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:05 am

Salamandra wrote:Did this a few days ago, had me as drakes and adds tank, prot Warrior as Sartharion tank. Holy Paladin and Holy Priest as healers, 1 death knight dps and 5 caster dps. Warrior tank died a little bit after Shadron died, I automatically had aggro due to magical powers apparently. I then tanked both Vesperon and Sartharion until the kill, while the prot warrior was battle resurrected to pick up the adds.

Hm, that seems as an interesting setup, that might be able to unload good dps and kill a dragon before a 2nd one lands... Which helps a lot the add tank... Can you give some more specific info like: which healer healed what, and when exactly you had your drake kills - did you manage to kill each one before the 2nd one lands etc? And for which drake did you use lust?
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