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[10] Sartharion with 3 drakes

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Postby Cakes » Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:10 pm

Chunes wrote:we gave this a good 25 or so attempts last night and got facef*cked every time.

our comp was admittedly poor, as was our lack of lust for the most part.

the biggest issue for most the night was people getting hit by waves/void zones... ugh.

Group comp:

DK - Sarth
Prot war - Drakes
Prot Pal - small adds
mage
hunter
boomkin
rogue
spriest
holy pala
holy priest

doing it tonight replacing the boomkin and hunter w/ ele shaman/DK. Also going to a 2 tank setup, allowing our DK tank to go back to the DPS spec he mains as... we'll see how it goes.

i'm not excited in the least to be tanking drakes+small adds...


I'd really recommend against two tanking, especially with the warrior as MT. There are points in the fight where even Last Stand isn't enough to withstand a breath. Having a DK to help with adds is a great idea, however. I'd recommend just swapping the warrior for a feral or DK on sarth, you on drakes, and the DK helping you with dps and adds.
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Postby knaughty » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:51 pm

Chunes wrote:we gave this a good 25 or so attempts last night and got facef*cked every time.

our comp was admittedly poor, as was our lack of lust for the most part.

the biggest issue for most the night was people getting hit by waves/void zones... ugh.

Group comp:


doing it tonight replacing the boomkin and hunter w/ ele shaman/DK. Also going to a 2 tank setup, allowing our DK tank to go back to the DPS spec he mains as... we'll see how it goes.

i'm not excited in the least to be tanking drakes+small adds...


Group composition won't fix the bolded bit. Our kill had zero people get hit by the wall, which is roughly what's required.

Bloodlust is a massive help. We were doing back-to-back attempts with one shaman, so every second attempt had lust. We were probably about 3x as likely to hit the DPS check if lust was available. We did manage it without, but it is hard.

I'd agree with "three tanks" comments, if only because it is unlikely your prot warrior will live through tanking Sarth through "BoD phase". (Breath of Doom)

We tried two-tank with me on drakes+adds and the logistics are nightmarish. Very likely your healers will die, or you'll breath on the raid trying to save the healers. RD + AS are not enough to do pickups. DPS DK doing pickups for you is just going to end up tanking them or dying anyway.
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Postby Morganim » Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:46 pm

Knaughty wrote:
Chunes wrote:we gave this a good 25 or so attempts last night and got facef*cked every time.

our comp was admittedly poor, as was our lack of lust for the most part.

the biggest issue for most the night was people getting hit by waves/void zones... ugh.

Group comp:


doing it tonight replacing the boomkin and hunter w/ ele shaman/DK. Also going to a 2 tank setup, allowing our DK tank to go back to the DPS spec he mains as... we'll see how it goes.

i'm not excited in the least to be tanking drakes+small adds...


Group composition won't fix the bolded bit. Our kill had zero people get hit by the wall, which is roughly what's required.

Bloodlust is a massive help. We were doing back-to-back attempts with one shaman, so every second attempt had lust. We were probably about 3x as likely to hit the DPS check if lust was available. We did manage it without, but it is hard.

I'd agree with "three tanks" comments, if only because it is unlikely your prot warrior will live through tanking Sarth through "BoD phase". (Breath of Doom)

We tried two-tank with me on drakes+adds and the logistics are nightmarish. Very likely your healers will die, or you'll breath on the raid trying to save the healers. RD + AS are not enough to do pickups. DPS DK doing pickups for you is just going to end up tanking them or dying anyway.


Honestly im finding lust atm isnt that 'huge' dps boost for melee heavy 10 mans taht it was in TBC, casters on the other hand go nutso with lust. But melee just dont seem to get as big of a dps boost out of it anymore
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Postby Jellypop » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:48 pm

JUST GOT IT DONE!!!

5 hours raid time!!
3 DRAKE
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Postby kram » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:59 pm

I find if you stand just west of the portal so the portal is just on the edge of your consecrate every whelp should be on you.

If you do go with two tanks I recommend tanking Sarthartion where he starts turned sideways instead of pulling him across and tanking him on the little island. It adds alot more room for the drakes and ranged while you can safely move slightly and stay close to the portal for whelps. Depending on the direction tenebron moves when he goes to hatch eggs and on lava waves your dps needs to be ready for you to face the drakes the other way.

Ranged dps need to try and bring and flame adds they get to you while taunts&as should keep them off of healers.

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Postby Chunes » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:01 am

Cakes wrote:some stuff


The DK who was tanking sarth, went back to his main spec of DPS, but we had him more or less on little add duty. I switched to twilight add duty and we had our feral druid on sarth. We tanked sarth more or less on the south west corner of the platform (not the extreme corner, just in the vicinity. I have seen guilds cram their tank on the very edge of the platform, but our druid/healers were not comfortable with that, so sarth effectively was sitting on the "20 yard line" of his little platform for the fight).

The first 10 wipes or so were people shedding their tunnel vision and not dying to flamewalls/void zones. I was also learning the nuances of tanking the twilight drakes. Some observations:

- Drakes did not like to stay still -
This problem is akin to the dreaded "tauren hitbox + grobbulus" effect: drake is slightly out of pocket, tank moves to adjust the drake, drake registers as being too close to the player (overlapping hitboxes) and moves to correct the overlap thus moving to almost the exact same relative position he was in before. /startVisciousCircle. Me and Tenebron tangoed for the first 8 attempts until I learned that running through him was more effective for repositioning him than trying to circumnavigate his hitbox.

- Drakes love to breathe on the raid -
In conjunction to the above problem, our rogue got either single or double breathed (when Tene/Shad were both up) multiple times due to drakes "turning around to reposition". Not really too much that can be done about this besides praying we get lucky and the drakes do not decide to move around too much, or replacing the rogue w/ a ranged. We are planning on trying a hunter in his position next time.

- DK on Adds seemed to work pretty well -
we had two in the raid (1 dw spec, one UH2h spec), the unholy2h DK was wrangling eles and baby drakes but he had the tendency to gib when Tenebron got to about 15% hp just due to the sheer number of adds on him (3-6 eles - some enraged at times, clutch of whelps -_-). We started throwing pain suppression on him just in efforts to get us past tenebron, but every time we did, a drake would move and breath the raid, the druid would get an unlucky void zone + flame wall combo and eat one or the other (this can be avoided i know), or some idiot would die in a void zone and we'd start the downward cycle of a wipe.

Group comp:
Feral Druid - Sarth Tank
Prot Pala - Twilight Tank
DPS DK - Add Tank
Disc Priest
Holy Pala
Ele Sham -> Resto sham (switched halfway thru night)
FFB Mage
Rogue
DW DK
Spriest

Farthest we managed to get was Shadron 40% before collapsing due to someone dying.

What is the most discouraging is that we have not even seen the other half of the fight, a portal dance, Cooldown rotations on the sarth tank... sigh.[/i]
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Postby Jellypop » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:04 am

as much as it's discouraging,

the only real hard part (atleast in 25man) was to get through 2nd drake->3rd drake transistion and clearing the adds as you do it.

once you get to last drake, it's all about not being stupid.

one thing i do notice is the difference of strats around, when i'm not lazy i'll post a screenie of how we do it
Last edited by Jellypop on Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby knaughty » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:33 pm

Chunes wrote:Farthest we managed to get was Shadron 40% before collapsing due to someone dying.


Killing 2nd drake is basically the key to the fight.

Once he's down, it basically becomes a control fight and is massively easier.

• Kill 2nd drake.
• AE adds
• Kill Disciples
• Kill 3rd drake, with a side-trip to knock off any disciple spawns.
• Tank final phase to 11%
• Pop bloodlust, while all AE tanks spam AE threat abilities on a bunched up pile of healers.
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Postby kram » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:59 pm

• Kill 2nd drake.
• AE adds
• Kill Disciples

You're far better off killing shadron's acolyte before aoeing.
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Postby knaughty » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:14 pm

kram wrote:
• Kill 2nd drake.
• AE adds
• Kill Disciples

You're far better off killing shadron's acolyte before aoeing.

I don't agree, but am interested to hear your reasoning.

It only takes a couple of GCDs to kill the whelps, and frees the add tank to go back to concentrating on add pickup while reducing the load on the tank healers. Also removes the chance the add-tank might get overwhelmed and die, leading to a wipe.

Only downside is that the AE won't hit Shadron himself, but DPS on Shadron is not a race, you have as much time as you need to kill him, healer mana permitting.

Once first two drakes are dead and whelps are dead... fight is almost over. There are no further pressure points other than getting the boss dead before healers go OOM.
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Postby Cakes » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:23 pm

- Drakes did not like to stay still -
This problem is akin to the dreaded "tauren hitbox + grobbulus" effect: drake is slightly out of pocket, tank moves to adjust the drake, drake registers as being too close to the player (overlapping hitboxes) and moves to correct the overlap thus moving to almost the exact same relative position he was in before. /startVisciousCircle. Me and Tenebron tangoed for the first 8 attempts until I learned that running through him was more effective for repositioning him than trying to circumnavigate his hitbox.


The classic melee problem of the targetting circle being far, far larger than the hitbox. Melee has to be more observant than anyone on this fight, especially for void zones. There really isn't a fix for it other than paying attention and helping out your fellow melee chars. The positioning of drakes is tricky, but gets better with experience. As you'll also notice, tanking two at once sometimes gets hairy not only because of damage, but because one likes to sneak in behind you for unmitgated hits. I have no idea why Blizzard continues with this silly notion that two mobs can't share the same space despite the ability for their models to clip into each other, but it continues to be a pain for tanks.

- Drakes love to breathe on the raid -
In conjunction to the above problem, our rogue got either single or double breathed (when Tene/Shad were both up) multiple times due to drakes "turning around to reposition". Not really too much that can be done about this besides praying we get lucky and the drakes do not decide to move around too much, or replacing the rogue w/ a ranged. We are planning on trying a hunter in his position next time.


Another problem for melee, but one that can be roughly solved by keeping a close time on breaths. If you can avoid the repositioning of the drakes other than the times you call for it, melee should be fairly safe, barring the "Tenebron run around aimlessly hatching eggs" movement.

- DK on Adds seemed to work pretty well -
we had two in the raid (1 dw spec, one UH2h spec), the unholy2h DK was wrangling eles and baby drakes but he had the tendency to gib when Tenebron got to about 15% hp just due to the sheer number of adds on him (3-6 eles - some enraged at times, clutch of whelps -_-). We started throwing pain suppression on him just in efforts to get us past tenebron, but every time we did, a drake would move and breath the raid, the druid would get an unlucky void zone + flame wall combo and eat one or the other (this can be avoided i know), or some idiot would die in a void zone and we'd start the downward cycle of a wipe.


The enraged adds are going to be a big part of the damage that he's taking. If he can avoid letting them get hit by a flame wave (south originating waves will be the toughest), it's a very substantial damage decrease. It really will be the difference between being healable and unhealable. The flames, for the most part, are soloable by a prot pally, so a DK shouldn't have a problem.

The whelps don't hit very hard, but the armor debuff will stack quickly and make it a pain to have a lot of them up at once. Typically, your looking at killing Tenebron, AOE'ing the remaining whelps/adds, killing Shadron, AOE'ing adds again, take portals on Vesperon. It's your choice to portal dance with Shadron still up, but it substantially increases the length of the fight.


Group comp:
Feral Druid - Sarth Tank
Prot Pala - Twilight Tank
DPS DK - Add Tank
Disc Priest
Holy Pala
Ele Sham -> Resto sham (switched halfway thru night)
FFB Mage
Rogue
DW DK
Spriest


Are you having problems with a holy pally and priest keeping everyone up? I might suggest a CoH priest on this due to raid damage and the extra cooldown of Guardian Spirit rather than losing another dps for a healer. The 3rd Healer vs. Extra DPS debate has been raged before, but you're trading stability for a shorter fight duration. If your two healers are confident in their abilities, I'd really stick with just two.

Hop on Alliance side sometime and shoot me a tell if you have questions or concerns about the fight.
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Postby kram » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:31 pm

Knaughty wrote:
kram wrote:
• Kill 2nd drake.
• AE adds
• Kill Disciples

You're far better off killing shadron's acolyte before aoeing.

I don't agree, but am interested to hear your reasoning.

It only takes a couple of GCDs to kill the whelps, and frees the add tank to go back to concentrating on add pickup while reducing the load on the tank healers. Also removes the chance the add-tank might get overwhelmed and die, leading to a wipe.

Only downside is that the AE won't hit Shadron himself, but DPS on Shadron is not a race, you have as much time as you need to kill him, healer mana permitting.

Once first two drakes are dead and whelps are dead... fight is almost over. There are no further pressure points other than getting the boss dead before healers go OOM.


You still risk the death of the MT leaving the acolyte up longer. You should be AoEing the whelps right when Tenebron dies and from then on adds shouldnt be a issue (even more so if you have 3 tanks).
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Postby knaughty » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:13 pm

kram wrote:You still risk the death of the MT leaving the acolyte up longer. You should be AoEing the whelps right when Tenebron dies and from then on adds shouldnt be a issue (even more so if you have 3 tanks).

We don't AoE whelps until 2nd drake is dead, probably because we have three tanks.

Typically, that's the only time AoE is called. For S3D-10, I tank the adds - but until whelps I also pretty much solo them all down. Hunter would usually dispel enrage if one spawns in a fire-wall (or paths through one on the way over). Our progression 10-man kill I needed some quick AoE after Disciple phase as I was tanking drakes + lots of fire eles.

I will two the adds over to melee range so passive AoE from Ret/DK/Fire-mage helps kill them off.

In any case - your option works for you, mine works for me :) Both are pretty good, and are probably more around the rest of the group makeup.
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Postby Lisson » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:10 pm

We got it!

DK tank (sarth with a stupid lol spec) 24/11/36 (all the stupid CD buttons)
Prot warrior on drakes
Prot pally on adds
shadow priest
warlock
hunter
ele/resto shammy
holy pally
holy pally
mage
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Postby Joanadark » Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:39 am

You still risk the death of the MT leaving the acolyte up longer.


Not really. Its the drake that does the 100% fire damage aura. Shadron's acolyte actually does nothing whatsoever at all, other thank putting the shield on Sartharion that makes him take like 2 damage.

And since your tank should be resetting his Twilight Torment from the Vesperon Acolyte by himself, from the moment Shadron himself dies, your tank should be taking breaths no bigger than he would on a 0-drake kill, with the exception that he has less HP.

The only reason to kill Acolytes at all is because Twilight Torment is annoying, and you'll eventually want to DPS sartharion at some point it it'll be inconvinient if he's only taking 1% damage from your attacks.
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