[10] Sartharion with 3 drakes

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Postby Mex » Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:30 pm

Maswin wrote:What sort of DPS is required for this? We've been trying it for the last few weeks with various setups, but our DPS just can't seem to get a drake down in time.


You need very high DPS. Ideally I'd say you'd want your DPSers to be doing around 4k average, perhaps slightly less depending on synergies.

Class isn't really that important. You won't win simply by having a hunter, and if that hunter is a fresh 80 with an inexperienced player then you're just hurting yourself even more.

For guilds that stick exclusively to 10 mans, I think realistically you'd want people to be wearing 90% best in slot gear.

A few thoughts about the fight ...

For those planning on working up from 1/2 drakes to 3, the jump from 2->3 is HUGE. It is essentially a completely different fight. 1-2 drakes is basically just Sartharion with extra mobs running around. 3 drastically changes the dynamics by introducing the possibility of tanks being 1-shot by the breath, and imposing a very very high DPS requirement (while some have said that this is not as important as control, it is nevertheless still a very central part of the fight. With 3 tanks and 4 healers, you'd wipe for sure). 2 is good to practice basic roles, but imo if you're serious about going for 3, then spend as much time as possible wiping on 3, then leave an hour at the end of the week to kill it with 2 for the extra loot (sans mount).

Frost res gear. It has a metric *cough*tonne of stamina, and sockets for more stamina. If your Sarth tank can maintain uncrittable in that, then it can often help a lot with surviving breaths, especially if you're using last stand / shield wall style moves to live through breaths (as opposed to 100% AMS or guardian spirit). The only thing is that once all 3 adds are dead, your sarth tank will be taking a lot of damage (75% more damage, 75% more haste on boss). Have the conventionally geared OT taunt the boss, and put the stam-geared MT on adds. Not necessary in all setups, but it can help for those without DKs / holy priests in particular.

Finally, I'm really interested to see how blood DKs will do on this fight next patch. 33 second CD AMS + new vamp blood will make for insane CD rotations, in addition to a flat 15% extra DR from will of the necropolis on breaths (since they will always take the tank below 35%, at least while Shadron's alive), and of course the new 15% magic DR frost presence. AMS the first big breath, then pop VB for 30 seconds of a huge health pool and 50% more heals, then AMS again once VB wears off. Then IBF (even at 35% it'll be enough). Then you've got a slight dead period for ~10 seconds, possibly less depending on how CDs line-up with breaths, which you can fill with hand of sac or a priest CD or even PW:S possibly. Then start the rotation all over again! Not sure how it'd compare to unholy with 20% bone shield but AMZ as well, but with full stam gear I think it could be very potent.
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Postby Tiluvar » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:24 am

Just finished this up last night. Very cool fight.

I was responsible for the adds primarily, and used BoSacrifice on our DK tank when he had no cooldowns available to save himself from the breath.

Tossing around Sacred Shield when Twilight Torment is up also helps mitigate some of the damage that the DPS takes.

All in all it's a great fight for a Pally tank, really had to use everything I had to come out with a win.
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Postby Menian » Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:32 pm

Seems like a lot of people are having a hard time with this fight! I know we are..

Last night we tried for awhile with me (prot paladin) on the whelps and adds but I was having a hugely difficult time picking the whelps up. It seemed that no matter where I guessed they were going to spawn (it never seems like its right no top of the portal...) wasn't where they were so my consecrate would miss them. An avenger's shield helped but I had some unlucky stupid taunts too (had one time where a whelp or blaze was headed toward the drake tank, and it taunted all of them including the drake which promptly turned around and whiped the raid...I would kill for the single taunt right now..)

Seems like many people are saying that a prot paladin isn't the best for whelps/adds. Is this a pretty common feeling? Would I do better at the drakes?

I realize part of the problem was the dps because we got a second wave of whelps which was pretty impossible to get on me with the first set and blazes...

Do people have any suggestions for picking up the whelps?

For reference we had a druid tanking Sarth, and a warrior tanking the Drakes. Any advice would help =)

thanks!
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Postby knaughty » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:22 pm

Whelps always spawn near the portal at center, and then usually head for your healer. Focus your high aggro healer and watch their health bar, taunt them if it moves. Have consecrate between portal and healer (stick a mark on their head), and make sure AS/Taunt/HotR are available.

Second set of whelps is an indication you don't have the DPS for the event. I've managed to cleanly pick up the second set of whelps, but you just get further and further behind and healers get overwhelmed by incoming damage.

You need 5 DPS. Which means you're doing it with two tanks (:shock:) or two healers.

NFI how someone would tank adds + drakes. They are a tanking god if they can manage it. Maybe a DK could do it. For 25 Sarth+3 we use TWO add-tanks. I find Add duty the hardest tanking job of the three of them.

Plate DPS tanks disciple with "hybrid" DPS healing (boomkin/ele shaman).

Once drakes are dead or down to last one, feel free to rotate tanking roles. We almost always need the bear to enervate or BR someone, so once last drake is dead me or war pick up Sarth, bear does BR/enervate then does some kitty DPS to ~10%.

So long as it isn't disciple phase, you can do the same thing even if drake-tank is busy. Yell at plate DPS to do add pickup for a while, grab sarth, bear does his thing the grabs sarth back.

Plate DPS also grab adds for 10 seconds if I have to run over to bear for Sacrifice duty. You do NOT want to be on GCD when bear yells for sac.
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Postby Joanadark » Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:27 pm

wipe with vesperon at 30% qq
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Postby amh » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:31 pm

Joanadark wrote:wipe with vesperon at 30% qq


:(

First serious attempt on Sarth10 3D on wednesday to come..
/shiver
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Postby Morganim » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:00 pm

Had another go at this last night after about 5 weeks of not being able to do it due to xmas etc.

Still got fucking ownd hard, and i dont understand why

We where running,
prot pal
feral
enhance
arms
rogue
hunter
spriest
resto sham
holy pal
holy priest

I think due to heavy melee if we find the walls are in the wrong spot we arent getting enough dps due to movement, but im unsure if i swap to some more ranged which classes i could throw out for a mage or boomkin. Or do you need 100% synergy so id have to change toa complete ranged make up. I pretty much have every class availiable to me to utilise but just not sure what i can do atm.

I think i need to swap one class for a ret paladin or fury warrior as well to constantly thin out the whelps and elementals but im not 100% sure.

I seem to have refined solo tanking enough that rarely will a healer get whelp aggro, and the occasional blaze gets loose but with 3 healers there easily off tanked until taunts back up.
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Postby knaughty » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:19 pm

Morganim wrote:Had another go at this last night after about 5 weeks of not being able to do it due to xmas etc.

Still got fucking ownd hard, and i dont understand why


When & how are you failing?
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Postby Morganim » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:57 pm

Knaughty wrote:
Morganim wrote:Had another go at this last night after about 5 weeks of not being able to do it due to xmas etc.

Still got fucking ownd hard, and i dont understand why


When & how are you failing?


If we get walls that go left > right > left > right etc or alternate we dont get 1st down in time which i think is largely due to the high number of melee dps

Last night wasnt enough aoe to finish off the whelps fast enough but that was my fault on group make up i think.

Beside that im just not sure we can get to 2nd drake fine we just start to slowly die off and i cant for the life of me tell how, its not twilight torment because we checked that -_-
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Postby knaughty » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:06 pm

Well, we bring a lot of AoE: Mage/Lock/Ret/DK

We balance melee & ranged DPS.

We use two healers & three tanks.

As add tank, I pretty much kill the flame-adds solo, with some splash AoR from DK/Ret & Living bomb.

All melee is going to fail on Whelp-killing. We tried low AoE makeup and it failed pretty hard.
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Postby Lytebohlt » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:50 pm

Just did this tonight.

Group comp:

DK Tank (Sarth)
Warr Tank (Drakes)
Pally tank (Adds)

Pally (Add/Drake Tank)
Priest (Sarth Tank)
Shaman (Raid Damage, Dps on Tenebron)

Mage
Lock
Spriest
Boomkin

We had about 50/50 luck on whether we would get Tenebron down before 2nd set of whelps, if they spawned (as they did on the kill), DPS went to Shadron after Tenebron died, pally picked the 2nd set up, shield walled, ran over to drake tank and aoe commenced. So even if your dps isn't up to the supposed standard the fight is still doable with a large amount of control.

Used Guardian Spirit, Blessing of Sacrifice x2, and Divine Guardian after DK CDs wore down.

Edit: This board was invaluable in understanding the fight. Thanks to all for their contributions.
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Postby kram » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:45 am

Morganim wrote:If we get walls that go left > right > left > right etc or alternate we dont get 1st down in time which i think is largely due to the high number of melee dps

Last night wasnt enough aoe to finish off the whelps fast enough but that was my fault on group make up i think.

Beside that im just not sure we can get to 2nd drake fine we just start to slowly die off and i cant for the life of me tell how, its not twilight torment because we checked that -_-


If you cant reliably get tenebron down without getting two sets of whelps you're better off bloodlusting for him as soon as you have him in position. Melee need to be awake and ready to swap directions on the drakes especially if you're running with only two tanks. We always hold off on AoE until tenebron is dead and it seems to work fine. Even with two sets of whelps you can survive, your aoe just needs to be ready to stop AoE when they spawn.

Two tanks/two healers is really the way to do this fight imo. It helps if you can bring a Mana Tide or innervate for mana though. Adding a third tank doesnt really add any benefit besides healers having to deal with a few less adds.

The Lava Strikes from the sky still do a decent amount of raid damage (~6k iirc) and it helps if you have a healer that can spot the raid a bit. (three healers it shouldn't really be a issue)
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Postby hoho » Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:16 am

Knaughty wrote:Well, we bring a lot of AoE: Mage/Lock/Ret/DK
spriest>all when they can nuke down lots of adds at once. Well, maybe DK's D&D is better as they can throw it out and continue dps'ing main target. Combine spriest+dk tanking adds and they will drop down fast with the DK spreading DP ticking for ~1.5-2k on each add.
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Postby Chunes » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:47 am

we gave this a good 25 or so attempts last night and got facef*cked every time.

our comp was admittedly poor, as was our lack of lust for the most part.

the biggest issue for most the night was people getting hit by waves/void zones... ugh.

Group comp:

DK - Sarth
Prot war - Drakes
Prot Pal - small adds
mage
hunter
boomkin
rogue
spriest
holy pala
holy priest

doing it tonight replacing the boomkin and hunter w/ ele shaman/DK. Also going to a 2 tank setup, allowing our DK tank to go back to the DPS spec he mains as... we'll see how it goes.

i'm not excited in the least to be tanking drakes+small adds...
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Postby Menian » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:59 pm

Knaughty wrote:Whelps always spawn near the portal at center, and then usually head for your healer. Focus your high aggro healer and watch their health bar, taunt them if it moves. Have consecrate between portal and healer (stick a mark on their head), and make sure AS/Taunt/HotR are available.

Second set of whelps is an indication you don't have the DPS for the event. I've managed to cleanly pick up the second set of whelps, but you just get further and further behind and healers get overwhelmed by incoming damage.


For picking up the whelps, I would usually stand a bit in front of the portal and consecrate there but the whelps always seemed to spawn some other random spot. I would Avenger's Shield some but when I taunted them for some reason (maybe they targeted our drake tank or there was a blaze running towards the drake tank) my taunt would pull the Drake too...

We had a paladin healer with us so would it be beneficial to have him use RF and stand close to me when the whelps come out?

I did get lucky with the whelps once and they came out right in my consecrate and I picked them up no problem. It just seems like the spawn place is pretty random.

I did have a question on the placement/killing order of the little adds and whelps. I have read basically 2 strats.
1. Don't worry about killing the little guys until after the first drake is down, then aoe all blazes and whelps (some little blazes might die just from tank dmg.)
2. Bring the blazes and whelps over towards the drake to get aoe'd down in a place where it will hit the drake as well.

I feel like option 1 is a little easier if you have the dps because moving 15+ blazes and whelps can be tricky but maybe I am wrong. Any thoughts on picking up the whelps consistently and how to kill them?

Thank you in advance
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