Could I get an explanation?

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Could I get an explanation?

Postby Elderin » Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:36 am

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that Paladins still need spell power for threat purposes.

Why are all the tanking items bereft of spell power and why are people recommending weapons with no spell power?

And yes, I'm aware of the talent that gives spell power for stamina. But to make up the loss of spell power on my current mace, I would need a mace with 786 stamina.
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Postby Shamora » Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:50 am

Pally abilities now scale with AP as well as SP. So STR is the desired stat, raising both threat and block (2 STR = 1 block now). Also HotR damage is based on weapon DPS so tanking weapons are more beneficial in that regard as well.
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Postby Obrimos » Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:05 am

Shamora wrote:Pally abilities now scale with AP as well as SP. So STR is the desired stat, raising both threat and block (2 STR = 1 block now). Also HotR damage is based on weapon DPS so tanking weapons are more beneficial in that regard as well.


This.

And AP scales better for threat than SP, since 1 AP ~ 1 SP and it's 2 AP per iL point while 1 SP per iL point.
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Postby Constantine » Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:45 am

Elderin wrote:And yes, I'm aware of the talent that gives spell power for stamina. But to make up the loss of spell power on my current mace, I would need a mace with 786 stamina.


You would need 786 TOTAL stamina. And if your stats look anything like mine, I'm betting you're not far off.
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Postby theshard » Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:02 pm

radioactivejack wrote:
Elderin wrote:And yes, I'm aware of the talent that gives spell power for stamina. But to make up the loss of spell power on my current mace, I would need a mace with 786 stamina.


You would need 786 TOTAL stamina. And if your stats look anything like mine, I'm betting you're not far off.


If you are 70, hopefully you are well above 786 stamina. I have almost 1200 unbuffed and I know there are better geared pallys out there than me.
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Postby Bk992004 » Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:54 pm

radioactivejack wrote:
Elderin wrote:And yes, I'm aware of the talent that gives spell power for stamina. But to make up the loss of spell power on my current mace, I would need a mace with 786 stamina.


You would need 786 TOTAL stamina. And if your stats look anything like mine, I'm betting you're not far off.



This is the part I don't get:

If I have, solely for argument's sake, +200 spell dmg on a weapon and 500 stamina... how does giving up a weapon with +200 spell dmg for a weapon with +30str equal out? Either way I have the 500stam to help with sp dmg, but I'm still giving up a ton of dmg, no?

Granted, I'm getting some benefit back with still getting some sp dmg from the way things scale, plus I'm getting some block I didn't have before, but pure threat-wise, does +30, 40, or even 50str really do more pure threat than 200sp dmg?


edited to add:

And the "no, you need ____ total stamina" argument is a wash if you already have that stamina and the choice is a +spelldmg weapon or a +str weapon.

If you're not taking the stam away, you most certainly do need something to account for the threat loss from the spdmg you're losing.
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Postby Gelnon » Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:43 pm

Bk992004 wrote:
radioactivejack wrote:
Elderin wrote:And yes, I'm aware of the talent that gives spell power for stamina. But to make up the loss of spell power on my current mace, I would need a mace with 786 stamina.


You would need 786 TOTAL stamina. And if your stats look anything like mine, I'm betting you're not far off.



This is the part I don't get:

If I have, solely for argument's sake, +200 spell dmg on a weapon and 500 stamina... how does giving up a weapon with +200 spell dmg for a weapon with +30str equal out? Either way I have the 500stam to help with sp dmg, but I'm still giving up a ton of dmg, no?

Granted, I'm getting some benefit back with still getting some sp dmg from the way things scale, plus I'm getting some block I didn't have before, but pure threat-wise, does +30, 40, or even 50str really do more pure threat than 200sp dmg?


edited to add:

And the "no, you need ____ total stamina" argument is a wash if you already have that stamina and the choice is a +spelldmg weapon or a +str weapon.

If you're not taking the stam away, you most certainly do need something to account for the threat loss from the spdmg you're losing.


It is not just the str on a weapon, it's the dps multiplied by 4 for Hammer plus added white damage plus mitigation stats if it's a tank weapon or ap/crit for a melee weapon though.
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Postby Danth » Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:45 pm

Hammer of the Righteous and Shield of the Righteous don't scale off spell power. The former scales entirely off main hand damage per second and the latter, off shield block value. That's where you make it up. The spell power weapon will still provide more threat in tanking more than 3 or 4 mobs at a time.

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Postby guillex » Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:11 pm

Danth wrote:Hammer of the Righteous and Shield of the Righteous don't scale off spell power. The former scales entirely off main hand damage per second and the latter, off shield block value. That's where you make it up. The spell power weapon will still provide more threat in tanking more than 3 or 4 mobs at a time.

Danth


Actually, that's only true up until about 1300-1400AP. Then you're better off with a regular high DPS weapon all the way.
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Postby Danth » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:14 pm

So much the better, less bag space clutter.

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Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:54 am

Guillex wrote:
Danth wrote:Hammer of the Righteous and Shield of the Righteous don't scale off spell power. The former scales entirely off main hand damage per second and the latter, off shield block value. That's where you make it up. The spell power weapon will still provide more threat in tanking more than 3 or 4 mobs at a time.

Danth


Actually, that's only true up until about 1300-1400AP. Then you're better off with a regular high DPS weapon all the way.

It's also actually a difference of 50-60 TPS, is 50 TPS worth sacrificing survival stats? I'd say no.
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Postby Constantine » Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:11 am

And let me add with the change to defense, the added survival of a tanking weapon is very helpful. Once you get to 80 you should have well above the 1400 ap Guillex is talking about and would be sub-par in both stamina/avoidance AND threat if you continued to use a spell damage weapon.
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Postby Elderin » Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:53 pm

I'm looking over all the spell explanations on wowhead.com and I think we need a better explanation or a table to show this crap.

Okay, if I understand this correctly, all our abilities will gain damage with both attack power and spell power.

So, unlike Mages, Priests, Shaman, and Druids, we can use either stat to increase the damage our spells cause.

It's not clear if Death Knights are the same way.

I wonder if I drop my Cudgel of Consecration for a weapon with strength and get an attack power enchant, how much would it affect my threat.
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Postby Constantine » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:02 pm

Elderin wrote:I wonder if I drop my Cudgel of Consecration for a weapon with strength and get an attack power enchant, how much would it affect my threat.


It depends on what kind of gear you are in. If you got the Cudgel then I am assuming Badge/T4, maybe T5. Chances are if you drop the Cudgel and grab up a Kings's Defender or Sun Eater your threat will stay about the same (due to almost 2x damage from HotR and + stam from the weapon) and your survivability will go up (+ stam, dodge and defense.)
Last edited by Constantine on Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Elderin » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:07 pm

radioactivejack wrote:
Elderin wrote:I wonder if I drop my Cudgel of Consecration for a weapon with strength and get an attack power enchant, how much would it affect my threat.


It depends on what kind of gear you are in. If you got the Cudgel then I am assuming Badge/T4, maybe T5. Chances are if you drop the Cudgel and grab up a Kings's Defender or Sun Eater your threat will stay about the same (due to almost 2x damage from HotR) and your survivability will go up.


Woops. I forgot that I dropped the Cudgel for Hammer of Judgment. I'm in a mix of T5/T6 gear.
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