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Is the new PvE game going to be too easy?

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Belarkan » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:01 am

Elsie wrote:That is, to get every unique buff in the game the only particular classes you need are 4 paladin blessings, 2 shamans for bloodlust (10min CD, 5min debuff), mage for Arcane Intellect, and a disc priest for divine spirit. So no longer are most raid spots filled by the necessity of classes.


Actually, you only need 2 paladins buff.
Might <-> http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=2048
Wisdom <-> http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=25570

So, you juste need King and Sanctuary that are unic.

Acutally, there are several way a raid can be both easier and harder.
As you stated class requirement being mostly removed makes raiding easier.
On the other hand, you can do some amazing encounters that will require a lot of coordination.
Vashj, Kael require a lot of raid synchronisation and are not that hard once mastered - although when we first tried Vashj, I doubt that we could ever kill her.
Also, I remember how we skiped a lot Aran because a lot of players fail to pay attention to the circle of flame or whatever.
One could probably design hard encounter not because it's a gear check, but rather it requires a lot of coordination and a lot of care about what to do and when to do it.
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Postby Blutreich » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:27 am

<rant>
due to my computer crashing me moving and drastically changing availability i ended up going from raiding with the top third to the bottom third. watching people in better gear wipe on bosses that where made easier. Yes being able to devote massive time into wow is an advantage. But the main difference was player skill.

I don't care how many consumables you farm if you stand next to the infernals on prince you will die. I remember killing prince with a raid in blues n greens, and I remember failing prince with a raid in purples. (not like one freak time i mean fail fail fail replace 2 ppl fail fail fail... 4 hours later calling it)

It is not that the people in greens where able to play 18 hours a day it was that they learned the fights learned their class. The people in purples hit random buttons where poorly specked and couldn't master seemingly basic boss gimmicks.

If you can find a good solid group of people able to build and play a character to the Nth degree who are only able to play 2 hours a night 4 nights a week. If you can synchronize them there is no stopping you.

But if you find a group able to play 23 hours a day 6 days a week because they are out of middle school for the summer, but they have to ask directions out of UC. There is no hope for you.
</rant>


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Going to spend my cab money on more shots and just take the ambulance home
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Postby mavfin » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:35 am

Blutreich wrote:If you can find a good solid group of people able to build and play a character to the Nth degree who are only able to play 2 hours a night 4 nights a week. If you can synchronize them there is no stopping you.

But if you find a group able to play 23 hours a day 6 days a week because they are out of middle school for the summer, but they have to ask directions out of UC. There is no hope for you.
</rant>


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And this is what I've been saying all along. I belong more to the first group than the second, and the *core* of my guild is, too. We'll be the 10-man raid group that blazes the trail for the others. We don't have limitless time to play, but many of us are coming up on 4 years of WoW, and have (and understand) multiple 70s of different classes. Most of this core group know how to heal, how to tank, and how to DPS, and how it interacts. Yes, those people exist in the big raid guilds. I just don't think they're going to have a big skill edge over us. We just don't have the hours and hours to play that they do.
--Mav
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Postby Elsie » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:50 am

Actually, you only need 2 paladins buff.
Might <-> http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=2048
Wisdom <-> http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=25570

...Wisdom still stacks, but you're right about the might. So 3 paladins are necessary.

And I would like to preempt anyone who might say Grace can replace Blessing of Sanctuary because Grace is inherently worse. Nothing gives the resource return of BoS.
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Postby Belarkan » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:04 am

Elsie wrote:And I would like to preempt anyone who might say Grace can replace Blessing of Sanctuary because Grace is inherently worse. Nothing gives the resource return of BoS.


Grace isn't an on demand buff but a proc on heals. It's nowhere near Sanctuary - even if you put appart the other advantages from sanct - since only the healer's target benefit it.
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Postby Elsie » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:22 am

Belarkan wrote:
Elsie wrote:And I would like to preempt anyone who might say Grace can replace Blessing of Sanctuary because Grace is inherently worse. Nothing gives the resource return of BoS.


Grace isn't an on demand buff but a proc on heals. It's nowhere near Sanctuary - even if you put appart the other advantages from sanct - since only the healer's target benefit it.

Yes, yes I believe that is part of the reasoning why I simply said straight off Grace is worse.
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Postby Ryu » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:48 am

Naxx was too easy on the beta, can only hope there'll be more Sunwell-like instances and not too many walkovers, think of Black Temple and such.
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Postby Zironic » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:52 am

My Favorite bosses in TBC was Vashj, Kael'thas and Archimonde.

They were fights that weren't hard because they required consumables or massive dps. They were hard because you couldn't have slackers in your raid.

My guilds version of "Hardcore" is raiding 4 days a week for 3.5 hours and enforcing 75% attendance.
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Postby Elsie » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:57 am

Zironic wrote:My Favorite bosses in TBC was Vashj, Kael'thas and Archimonde.

They were fights that weren't hard because they required consumables or massive dps. They were hard because you couldn't have slackers in your raid.

My guilds version of "Hardcore" is raiding 4 days a week for 3.5 hours and enforcing 75% attendance.

I'd add Kalecgos to that list.
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Postby majiben » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:58 am

Ryu wrote:Naxx was too easy on the beta, can only hope there'll be more Sunwell-like instances and not too many walkovers, think of Black Temple and such.
You're in the minority :-P.

Nice gear btw but I could never understand stamina stackers.

Did you know if you changed your chest enchant to +16 defense and your shield gem to a +15 stam you would gain about .25% more avoidance at the cost of 0-10 hp?

Or you could change your wrist enchant to +12 defense and your shield gem to a +15 stam to would gain about .1% more avoidance at the cost of 0hp?

Bwahahah sorry I just love poking around stam stackers gems and enchants looking for optimal alternatives.
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Postby Zironic » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:58 am

I was taking a break from WoW when they cleared sunwell :(
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Postby Bobness » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:15 am

I'd call myself casual Hardcore....

I would have loved to have seen some pre-nerf 25 man stuff, sadly RL commitments would never allow that, on a number of occassions i got to play for an extended period of time & joined what I would consider hardcore raids. FM that was an eye opener,it got to the point where i didn't want to log on for fear of an extended ("this is life or death") raid night.

Personally I like the idea of a number of "relatively" easy 10 mans, hopefully this is enough to keep casual guilds together for more light hearted entertainment.

I don't think "elitism" per se is the problem "WOW" just mirrors real life

1) nice people

2) indifferent people

3) Retards

as long as 1 > 3 i'll keep playing
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Postby Discus » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:58 am

The "problem" is most of us - whether casual "scrubs/noobs" like me or hardcore sunwell guilds pay the same amount to Blizz to pay per month.
So, naturally, Blizz are going to tune the game the majority of us casual idiots who can barely spell their own names because our money is just as good as the raiders. In fact we are more desirable as we clog up the realms less.

Maybe they should switch to a pay-per-hour play so the hardcore players get special, secret little places
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Postby Passionario » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:42 am

As long as the initial instances don't resemble pre-2.1 "I SHATTER YOUR WHOLE RAID FOR OVER NINE THOUSAND, HOPE YOU BROUGHT ENOUGH PETRIFICATION FLASKS FOR EVERYONE" Gruul, I have no problem with their difficulty.
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Postby Karador » Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:32 am

People call names alot when they do not fit into the targeted groups.


Take High School for instance ( i am 31 so my terms may be out of date but you get the idea )

Jocks were adored by the teachers and cheerleaders while hated by the Geeks and Dorks

Geeks and Dorks were picked on by the Jocks and never made it with the ladies till they grew up and had 10 figure bank accounts and so forth :)


As for WoW terms my guild was 4/6 Sunwell pre nerfwell and we were damn proud of it. We got a late start in TBC raiding due to transfers / quits / rerolls and so forth but we were happy to get where we did in sunwell.

None of us were " HARDCORE " raiders like SK or Nihilium to the point we only raided 4 days a week for 3-4 hours a day.

Would people call me an Elitist? I enjoy playing this game for raiding only and really could give a damn less about PvP or the other things Blizzard throws into the game to keep people busy in the game.

To me someone i would call a " Scrub " is someone that gets the game and plays like they are on medication for stupidity. If you play 100 hours a week or 5 hours a week makes no difference to me. It is all your choice to make.


The terms that have been coined around WoW make me laugh sometimes when people get up in arms about being called a " Huntard " or " Newb ". There are people out there that earn these names on a daily basis.... But if you are a person that does not then just play and have fun your way.


In the end the ONLY thing that is hard about end game PvE is finding a Guild that can put together you and 24 other people that are not brain dead to take out a scripted encounter. Raiding in WoW has never been hard since the Days of C'Thun / LvL 60Naxx.

Those encounters took 100% execution. Now people would cry up rivers of tears if they had to face encounters like that. WoW Is HARD!


you can pretty much use this to sum up raiding in wow.


FIRE IS HOT! DON'T STAND IN FIRE!

Although with Naxx coming back its more like Fire / Slime / Green Shit on the floor.
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