My (new) idea to fix Reckoning

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My (new) idea to fix Reckoning

Postby kylone » Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:01 pm

This occured to me last night:
"While Reckoning is active, you generate 2/4/6/8/10% more threat while Righteous Fury is active."
What do you guys think?
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Re: My (new) idea to fix Reckoning

Postby knaughty » Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:46 pm

kylone wrote:This occured to me last night:
"While Reckoning is active, you generate 2/4/6/8/10% more threat while Righteous Fury is active."
What do you guys think?

We need more DPS, not more TPS.

Reckoning is also not a very good DPS talent.
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Postby kylone » Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:58 pm

I was under the impression that tanks need threat, and that it doesn't really matter how we get it. As far as tanking is concerned, Reckoning is a (mediocre, at best) threat talent. If bliz wants to make it tastier, the threat, or the proc chance needs to get increased.
Hmm. "Every time you block parry or dodge an attack, the chance of triggering the extra attacks increases by 1% until triggered or out of combat"
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Postby Legionp » Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:50 pm

kylone wrote:I was under the impression that tanks need threat, and that it doesn't really matter how we get it. As far as tanking is concerned, Reckoning is a (mediocre, at best) threat talent. If bliz wants to make it tastier, the threat, or the proc chance needs to get increased.
Hmm. "Every time you block parry or dodge an attack, the chance of triggering the extra attacks increases by 1% until triggered or out of combat"


You're still talking about triggering an extra attack from a 1.6 speed tanking weapon. Worthless IMO. As I've said before, I think reckoning should be activated upon dealing damage so it is useful for OTing, deal a large amount of white damage, and be a reactive proc. This makes paladin tanking less boring while increasing DPS and pvp utility. See shameless plug to my idea (I'm really drunk, but was less drunk when I wrote it) http://thelegionp.blogspot.com
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Postby Vika » Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:52 pm

kylone wrote:I was under the impression that tanks need threat, and that it doesn't really matter how we get it.


It's complicated.

To the extent that DPS will eventually push us on threat (and GC has given us some indication that this might again be the case down the road), all tanks need to be competitive in threat. The problem is that pallies apply a larger threat modifier to their damage than do other classes, so, to keep all of the tanks roughly equal in threat, pallies will have to do less damage, relative to the other tanks.

If we start seeing bosses with tightly tuned enrage timers or bosses that really push healers' mana pools (both of which we have good reason to believe will be seen in TBC), a substantial difference in tank DPS becomes a bit of a problem, since tanks are now actually contributing a fairly noticeable amount to raid DPS. Holding all other considerations equal, of course. Obviously, this more of a problem in progression scenarios where your DPS and healers are barely well-geared enough to beat the timer or deal with the amount of damage done over the course of the fight.

They could correct this in one of two ways:

1) Give pallies slightly higher TPS than the other tanks and make the threat cap a real issue for several DPS classes. If we can, on average, push out slightly more TPS, our lower DPS would be mitigated. This would, of course, require at least a few of our DPS to actually be able to approach the threat-level of the tank on fights in which enrage or healer mana is an issue. It's also not a very politic solution -- TPS is a major point of comparison between tanks; the tank with the higher TPS will hear less whining from the DPS, regardless of the amount of DPS the tank, himself, contributes, so this solution is just begging for an outcry from the other tanking classes.

2) Raise prot pally DPS and lower their threat modifier to keep pally TPS in line with the other tanks. Several people have suggested reducing RF to a 60% modifier. One obvious problem with this solution is that it hurts the ability of ret pallies to tank 5-mans without respecing, something Blizz has said it wants them to be able to do. They may not be as concerned about this with dual specs on the horizon. Anyway, it could be fixed by increasing the RF modifier through a talent high up the ret tree.

EDIT: A third option would be to have our white damage scale rather quickly with gear. I haven't really seen much data on this; it's an obvious possibility, given the power of AP/Str. It's also completely boring :P .

Unfortunately, making reckoning increase our TPS would give them even more incentive to decrease pally DPS, which might well exacerbate the problem.
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Postby kylone » Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:10 am

Isn't #1 the way things were before? It seems Bizzards design goal for Paladins...
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Postby kylone » Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:15 am

Legionp wrote:You're still talking about triggering an extra attack from a 1.6 speed tanking weapon. Worthless IMO. As I've said before, I think reckoning should be activated upon dealing damage so it is useful for OTing, deal a large amount of white damage, and be a reactive proc. This makes paladin tanking less boring while increasing DPS and pvp utility. See shameless plug to my idea (I'm really drunk, but was less drunk when I wrote it) http://thelegionp.blogspot.com

Hmm, how about a 1/2/3/4/5% chance to proc when someone in the raid gets damaged? (May need to limit it to melee damage.)
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Postby Legionp » Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:27 am

kylone wrote:
Legionp wrote:You're still talking about triggering an extra attack from a 1.6 speed tanking weapon. Worthless IMO. As I've said before, I think reckoning should be activated upon dealing damage so it is useful for OTing, deal a large amount of white damage, and be a reactive proc. This makes paladin tanking less boring while increasing DPS and pvp utility. See shameless plug to my idea (I'm really drunk, but was less drunk when I wrote it) http://thelegionp.blogspot.com

Hmm, how about a 1/2/3/4/5% chance to proc when someone in the raid gets damaged? (May need to limit it to melee damage.)


that's pretty difficult to implement. It needs to be based upon the individual character, regardless of what the result is. And as I said in my post, instead of 2/4/6/8/10 % I think is should be 3/6/10%, because any end result of this talent is not worth five talent points.

Also, I believe that this ability should be a modification of Sword and Board simply because it makes tanking at least somewhat variable rather than having the same tanking rotation over and over. I love DPSing / Tanking on my warrior because you never know what is going to happen with procs. You have to use your rage conservatively or aggressively to swap stances... much more reactive and absolutely no possibly of a macro achieving nearly the same DPS / TPS as it does for tankadins. That is just wrong IMO.
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Postby kylone » Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:05 am

Hmm, it's looking like the best way is just to have Reckoning give a passive threat increase (to all threat, no just Holy damage) whenever Righteous Fury is active (that is, essentially add a RF buff to the talent. The threat provided shoud be tuned to put us equal to Warrior threat when Reckoning isn't proc'd (so we get a slight bump whenever it does proc.
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Postby Vika » Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:16 am

kylone wrote:Isn't #1 the way things were before? It seems Bizzards design goal for Paladins...


In T4, yes. In T5, kinda. In T6, the lack of synergy between our threat stats and our mitigation stats caught up with us and we reached a fairly significant threat plateau. I don't think there was really much intentionality behind it: Blizz has admitted that encounters were designed around warriors; I see no real reason to suspect that they really sat down and mapped out exactly where they wanted each tank to be in relation to the other at each level of gear. Sure there seemed to be a general plan, but I don't think they were following the specific set of goals for tank balance that they are in LK.

Anyhow, if #1 is their current goal, I'd expect them to run into some real balance difficulties. To calibrate our threat and DPS, they would need to know which classes push the threat cap at each level of gear, how many of those classes are likely to be in raids, how quickly those classes gear relative to tank threat, etc. That's too many balls in the air at once. In addition, as all classes begin to catch the tanks in threat, it would become fairly impossible to give pallies a detectable TPS advantage that wasn't horribly imbalanced. The differences in TPS would have to be so slim that there's not really any way of knowing whether they're even there -- differences in the effect that encounter design has on the TPS of each tank would be massively larger than any baked-in TPS advantage Blizz could fairly give us. Bottom line: given the size of the TPS lead they could possibly give us without it becoming imbalanced, there's really no way for even them to know if we actually had relatively more TPS than the other tanks; there just wouldn't be a statistically detectable difference in our TPS.
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Postby kylone » Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:13 am

I'm not sure why Blizzard could say something like this:
"Paladin damage went down by about 10% with the Seal/Judgement nerf, so we need Prot to have about 5% more threat to be where we want them. Let's see where we can add a threat buff to make this happen."
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Postby majiben » Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:30 am

Here's some simplified math I posted in another thread:

Majiben wrote:Here's some math on the subject of Paladin dps/tps versus other tank's dps/tps:

Assuming no innate and no healing threat (JoL) here's how much of our dps needs to be white damage

X= paladin melee dps; 1= total dps of both tanks
Code: Select all
1.43 * ( X + 1.9 * (1-X)) = 1.43 * 1.45 * 1
X +1.9 - 1.9 * X = 1.45
X=.5
Melee dps would have to make up 50% of our total damage output to have equal dps and tps.

Let's look at a 1.6 modifier on RF

X= paladin melee dps; 1= total dps of both tanks
Code: Select all
1.43 * ( X + 1.6 * (1-X)) = 1.43 * 1.45 * 1
X +1.6 - 1.6 * X = 1.45
X=.25
Melee dps would have to make up 25% of our total damage output to have equal dps and tps. That's much closer to what we are doing now.


Honestly, I don't think blizzard gives a damn about balancing tank dps/tps. If they did I would think they would be working on all the kinks that are in place now. Speaking up on the tanking forum is probably the best chance we have of enacting change. As it stands we are the lowest tps and dps tanks. Not to mention we have issues of tanking.
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Postby kylone » Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:38 am

I guess what I'm wondering if it would necessarily be bad if your dps-to-tps ratio was significantly below other tanks as long as out tps is up to snuff, and if so, why? (Besides soloing, that is)
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Postby majiben » Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:40 am

kylone wrote:I guess what I'm wondering if it would necessarily be bad if your dps-to-tps ratio was significantly below other tanks as long as out tps is up to snuff, and if so, why? (Besides soloing, that is)
If dps can't catch either of the tank's tps then the one with higher dps can be preferable in many cases.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:54 am

Majiben wrote:
kylone wrote:I guess what I'm wondering if it would necessarily be bad if your dps-to-tps ratio was significantly below other tanks as long as out tps is up to snuff, and if so, why? (Besides soloing, that is)
If dps can't catch either of the tank's tps then the one with higher dps can be preferable in many cases.


I would go a bit further.

If our dps is distinctly lower than the other tanks, then other tanks would be preferable in almost ALL cases.

Keep in mind, a good tanks dps is now an actual addition to a raids dps in WotLK, not like it was in the old TBC.

If tank A puts out 25% more DPS than tank B, then you want Tank A, given that threat generation and survivability is otherwise equivalent.
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