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JoW double-nerf...Did i miss the post or...?

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Postby Sonic » Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:56 pm

Personally I was happy with JoW scaling based on ap/sd. In a raid enviroment it was better for a ret to judge wisdom. Cause you know.. the whole new design of making ret mana regen?

But logic is evil so they made the current change. Next I bet they will nerf divine plea again and make it so you deal less and take more damage as well when it's active. >.>

Not sure if i remember right,but i seem to recall that sometime after they nerfed it this way on test GC posted that they felt it is now giving back too little for low-mp specs (i'll dig into the blue trackers later at home if i remember to)


Yeah i remember seeing that post too. What's nice it they don't hold back on changes they KNOW are wrong. They stuff them down our throats anyway and promise to look into it.

Also GC made a some comments abuot how they really researched a reasonable number for the Judgments of the Wise nerf. It's really stupid that they can't crunch the numbers to figure wisdom with all the defence of JotW he's been spouting.
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Postby fafhrd » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:03 pm

The problem with JoW isn't that they can't figure out how to make it right for pallies, it's that they can't figure out how to make it right for pallies as well as all the other classes that benefit from it.

Here are the 3 cases they need to balance between:

i. mages/locks - huge max mana pools, small base mana pools, expensive spells, only hit the target once per 2-3 seconds. Several good class-based mana regain abilities

ii. hunters/enh shamans - small max mana pools, relatively high base mana pools, cheap spells, hitting the target more than once per second - crappy class-based mana regain abilities

iii. pallies - tiny max mana pools, tiny base mana pools, hitting the target once per 2-4 seconds (i'm guessing on that one, but definitely not as frequently as group ii) - decent class-based mana regain abilities
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Postby Zironic » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:03 pm

fafhrd wrote:
i. mages/locks - huge max mana pools, small base mana pools, expensive spells, only hit the target once per 2-3 seconds. Several good class-based mana regain abilities

Traditinally mage mana regen has been called "Eat a potion and mana gem every 2 minutes", now it's the same only you can only use one potion per combat.
ii. hunters/enh shamans - small max mana pools, relatively high base mana pools, cheap spells, hitting the target more than once per second - crappy class-based mana regain abilities

I'd argue that shamanistic rage and aspect of the viper are really powerful mana regen abilities.
iii. pallies - tiny max mana pools, tiny base mana pools, hitting the target once per 2-4 seconds (i'm guessing on that one, but definitely not as frequently as group ii) - decent class-based mana regain abilities

Our base mana pools are afaik the same size that all the other mana based classes have and all flavors of paladin should hit the target more often then every 2 sec.
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Postby fafhrd » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:39 pm

Zironic wrote:
iii. pallies - tiny max mana pools, tiny base mana pools, hitting the target once per 2-4 seconds (i'm guessing on that one, but definitely not as frequently as group ii) - decent class-based mana regain abilities

Our base mana pools are afaik the same size that all the other mana based classes have and all flavors of paladin should hit the target more often then every 2 sec.


Base Mana at 70:
Druid 2370
Hunter 3383
Mage 2241
Paladin 2953
Priest 2620
Shaman 3457
Warlock 2871

Base Mana at 80:
Druid 3796
Hunter 5046
Mage 3268
Paladin 4394
Priest 3863
Shaman 4396
Warlock 4294

All the mana based classes have different base mana, but you're right, pallies aren't the lowest, mages are, and shaman base seems to have been nerfed between 70 and 80 for some reason).

I'm surprised (and pleased) to hear that ret pallies do hit more often than every 2s, I imagined that with a 3.5s speed weapons and no spammable specials the frequency would be lower. How often do they usually hit with non-periodic damage?

And to answer the earlier points, mages also have evocation, clearcasting, various talents for cost reduction, and enough spirit/int to get decent regen outside the 5sr.

Shamanistic rage fills your mana bar once per 2 minutes - they also have water shield and mana spring though. Viper cuts your damage by half, loses you 300 AP and a haste proc.
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Postby Zironic » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:46 pm

I'm surprised (and pleased) to hear that ret pallies do hit more often than every 2s, I imagined that with a 3.5s speed weapons and no spammable specials the frequency would be lower. How often do they usually hit with non-periodic damage?


I did pull that out of my ass, let's do some simple math though.

Things that proc JoW:
Autoattack (3.5 sec) = 0.29 hits per sec
Crusader strike(6 sec) = 0.17 hits per sec
Divine storm(10 sec) = 0.1 hits per sec
Total: 0.56 hits per sec or one hit every 1.78 sec

And to answer the earlier points, mages also have evocation, clearcasting, various talents for cost reduction, and enough spirit/int to get decent regen outside the 5sr.

The thing is, traditionally mages have had to sacrifice everything to stay competetive. They dump clearcasting for icy veins, they dump evocation for mana pots and just pray that the fight is over before they go oom.

A mage that specs clearcasting, uses mage armor and uses evocation is a mage who's damage output is less then ideal and should just get replaced by a warlock that doesn't have those issues.
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Postby fafhrd » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:14 pm

True. Not terribly relevant to the point about how JoW applies differently to mages, shamans and ret pallies though :) Basically the point i was trying to make was that they can't just change JoW's regen % (1-2-4%), regen basis (base vs max mana) and proc chance (100% vs 50% vs PPM) without looking at how it'll effect each type of mana user that benefits from it.
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Postby Zumor » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:04 pm

the way it is now (and with all seals..) is stupid for us paladins
with HotR we used to hit 3 targets every 6secs and get 3 procs
now we can use a HotR and hit 3 targets and not one procs, thats just stupid, the same is with Seal of light, it used to regenerate enough HP in a fight to stay against 10mobs or more, and only thanks to HotR,

why did they have to nerf Retri and hit Protpalas even harder with their nerf than retris?
the same goes for the nerf to all seals and procrate of seals... retris were too strong regenerating mana, nerf Judgement of the wise and Seal of Wisdom with judgement of wisdom, its stupid... I want my old Sealpower back,
HotR lost part of its 51-pointer Quality with it
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:02 pm

We were in Sunwell last night without anyone to supply replenishment. My mana pool situation was really pretty rough. It gave me a pretty quick perspective on the JoW nerf.
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