Divine Shield, Avenging Wrath and Forebearance (3rd try)

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Divine Shield, Avenging Wrath and Forebearance (3rd try)

Postby Rhî » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:20 am

With one hotifx Blizzard have done a massive and shortsighted nerf to the complete Paladin class.

My idea, for which I want your feedback and support, is, that Blizzard rework Divine Shield and take off Forebearance of Avenging Wrath again.

Divine Shield: "Protects the paladin from all damage and spells for 12 sec, but decreases <his/her> damage by 100%. Once protected, the target cannot be protected by Divine Shield, Divine Protection or Hand of Protection again for 3 min."

If you activate Divine Shield, you will be immune to any damage and are unable to do any damage. You will be able to use skills like Repentance, heals or other non-damaging abilities, if you want. Even Avenging Wrath could be activated, although it would be senseless for the time Divine Shield is running. But you could use Divine Shield, then heal you up, divine shield wears off and immediately pop up Avenging Wrath to fight back your enemy. No overpowered burst, but annyoing strong survivability with minor burst.

After that Blizzard should rework Sacred Duty, matching this changes.

Sacred Duty: "Increases your total Stamina by 3/6%, reduces the cooldown of your Divine Shield and Divine Protection spells by 30/60 sec and reduces the damage penalty by 50/100%."

Any comments and improving suggestions are welcome. And if possible, make an in-game suggestion feedback with this idea.

Please discuss in a civil manner. It's annyoing to see topic after topic is being locked down. The topics aren't the problem, it's the discussion culture.
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Postby crabcrouton » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:23 am

I have a question I was wondering if you could clarify. Is this suggestion being made in response to the following GC post? (source:http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/12065191999-s-most-paladins-are-wanting-answers-to.html)

Ghostcrawler wrote:Our eventual plan is to put Divine Shield on a shared 30 sec cooldown with Avenging Wrath. We also plan on changing Divine Shield's attack speed penalty (which isn't really much of a penalty) and have it apply to all damage done while the bubble is up.

Divine Protection would no longer have the attack penalty, but since Prot paladins typically talent out of that penalty, it won't have a big effect on tanking (though obviously that talent would need to do something slightly different).

All of this assumes that preventing AW from being used with DS actually makes the Ret tree a little more balanced. We'll need to monitor that a little bit longer first.

We are going to go ahead and change the mana drains to a percentage of mana so that Ret paladins don't lose so much larger a percentage of their mana than casters with 15K mana.
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Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:25 am

Blizz are already planning something similar to this, as you'll see in this thread in General.
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Postby Rhî » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:29 am

That quote was new for me. My suggestion was renewed with the latest hotfix change on live servers. My base idea changing this ability is older than the hotfix. I've made that suggestion maybe 3 or 4 weeks ago in beta via in-game suggestion and again in an updated form after hotfix was applied.

Nice to see, they came to the almost same decision, although I think, that a shared cooldown is not necessary, if you cannot do any damage under divine shield.
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Postby crabcrouton » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:52 am

Well with Ret's penchance for burst, you could see scenarios like this:

Ret bubbles, Starts a Holy Light.
Opponent thinks Ret is unable to deal damage so bandages himself seeing the HL.
Ret cancels out of the bubble losing the damage penalty, and proceeds to do autoattack + instant potentially proccing SoC on both and/or crits.

Even if that scenario is flawed somehow, there's also tempo to contend with. Wings + DS is a huge tempo changer even if they're mutually exclusive with no cooldown window. Ret in arenas can be focused upon to force the bubble and once it comes up, the the opponents gain the upper hand in tempo. If Ret can come out of it right away winged and swinging, then it can regain the tempo and take on the offensive. The tempo gain isn't worth much to the opponents anymore despite time/resources spent on gaining it.
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Postby Candiru » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:04 am

At the moment the swing speed penalty BOOSTS ret burst damage while bubbled.

Since your SoC proc chance doubles while you are bubbled, it goes up to nearly 100% with a slow weapon.

Then a CS+SoC, DS+SoC, Auto+SoC will finish someone off rather quickly.

A damage penalty makes much more sense!

I used to use bubble+SoC->SoB seal twisting before, since you would nearly always get a SoC proc during a bubble.
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Postby Katamai » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:05 am

This is getting hilarious... why aren't they "hotfixing" this as fast as they nerfed ret (and the whole class) with Seal/AW nerfs?

It seems like hotfixing to paladins only applies if it's nerfs. -.-"
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Postby majiben » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:10 am

Did you forget the prema DG hotfix?
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Postby elfjorc » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:21 am

Katamai wrote:This is getting hilarious... why aren't they "hotfixing" this as fast as they nerfed ret (and the whole class) with Seal/AW nerfs?

It seems like hotfixing to paladins only applies if it's nerfs. -.-"


The explanation given is they just wanted to see whether getting rid of AW/DS combo would balance Ret in BGs and areanas or whether they needed to do more/less, while they worked on a proper solution with shared cooldowns and talent changes.

It does make sense a bit. It wasn't pretty, but it does make sense. If this was going out this week and they decided tomorrow that they needed to nerf more coefficients, can you imagine how messy THAT would have been?
Last edited by elfjorc on Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:22 am

I don't think the proposed fix is something they can hotfix - it's too big a mechanics change. Turning on Forbearance and adjusting its duration was an easy change for them to make in the meantime. Look for it in the next patch, or the one after.
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Postby Katamai » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:25 am

KysenMurrin wrote:I don't think the proposed fix is something they can hotfix - it's too big a mechanics change. Turning on Forbearance and adjusting its duration was an easy change for them to make in the meantime. Look for it in the next patch, or the one after.


Copy pasting the code they use for Recklessness/Shield Wall and renaming spells is too hard?

And seals were so OP to warrant a hotfix yet prot paladins getting 1-shot by DG bug is not?

Just shows where on list of priorities they put us.

@ elfjorc - locking out our SW for 2 mins or us getting one shot by DG bug is less important than some ret paladin bubble+AW 1 shotting some green geared moron in AV? We're playing a great game when he whole class is balanced around green geared tards in BGs getting killed. Whining doesn't pay, does it?

EDIT: And arcane mages are not 1 shotting anyone in BGs, right? Where's their "hotfix"... ah yes... it "requires through testing" becaus they don't want to nerf Arcane. Yet when it comes to nerfing the whole class de to BGs/Arenas, it's all cool.
Last edited by Katamai on Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Proudfoot » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:29 am

Ghostcrawler wrote:Our eventual plan is to put Divine Shield on a shared 30 sec cooldown with Avenging Wrath. We also plan on changing Divine Shield's attack speed penalty (which isn't really much of a penalty) and have it apply to all damage done while the bubble is up.


Now this is good news! I just wonder what the damage penalty will be... 25-50%? I really hope it's not 100%, that would be lame. Also with the damage reduction on DS I don't see why they'd need to share a cooldown but w/e it's better then a 2 min forbearance.
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Postby majiben » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:29 am

Katamai wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:I don't think the proposed fix is something they can hotfix - it's too big a mechanics change. Turning on Forbearance and adjusting its duration was an easy change for them to make in the meantime. Look for it in the next patch, or the one after.


Copy pasting the code they use for Recklessness/Shield Wall and renaming spells is too hard?

And seals were so OP to warrant a hotfix yet prot paladins getting 1-shot by DG bug is not?

Just shows where on list of priorities they put us.
As I posted earilier they quickly hotfixed the DG bug (1-2 days). Also I would like to know were you were oneshotted by it? So far what I can see that happening is if your tank took an unmitigated Pyroblast from Kael in TK in which case there are bigger problems than the DG bug.
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Postby elfjorc » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:30 am

Katamai wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:I don't think the proposed fix is something they can hotfix - it's too big a mechanics change. Turning on Forbearance and adjusting its duration was an easy change for them to make in the meantime. Look for it in the next patch, or the one after.


Copy pasting the code they use for Recklessness/Shield Wall and renaming spells is too hard?

And seals were so OP to warrant a hotfix yet prot paladins getting 1-shot by DG bug is not?

Just shows where on list of priorities they put us.

@ elfjorc - locking out our SW for 2 mins or us getting one shot by DG bug is less important than some ret paladin bubble+AW 1 shotting some green geared moron in AV? We're playing a great game when he whole class is balanced around green geared tards in BGs getting killed. Whining doesn't pay, does it?


There's a difference between changing some numbers in their code to finding out where something went wrong in their code after they changed it, after people report to them, they recreate it, look at code, etc etc. It could have nothing to do with importance.

EDIT: And arcane mages are not 1 shotting anyone in BGs, right? Where's their "hotfix"... ah yes... it "requires through testing" becaus they don't want to nerf Arcane. Yet when it comes to nerfing the whole class de to BGs/Arenas, it's all cool.


Apples and Oranges. I've been smoked and I've two shot those arcane mages over the last couple of days on my Hunter. Overall, my chances against an Arcane Mage coming to take BS in about 50/50, a Ret Pally with bubble/AW = no chance. At the end of the day, they're taking special attention to Rets because they're bloody whining so much. This is a double edged sword for Ret
Last edited by elfjorc on Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Katamai » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:32 am

Majiben wrote:As I posted earilier they quickly hotfixed the DG bug (1-2 days). Also I would like to know were you were oneshotted by it? So far what I can see that happening is if your tank took an unmitigated Pyroblast from Kael in TK in which case there are bigger problems than the DG bug.


It was a hyperbole and i don't know when they fixed DG because last night i tested it and it wasn't fixed. I'll test it again when i get home and post screenshots if indeed it wasn't fixed. As far as i remember, i was seeing reports for DG bug as recent as last night on official forums.
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