Prot 11 pt talent - our version of Death Grip

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Prot 11 pt talent - our version of Death Grip

Postby Tensen » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:51 am

Could someone post this on the beta forums if they get a chance, I can't log in there from work...


With GC comments about wanting a talent to be useful for all specs (especially ret) if they wanted to go for it, one of the things the pally community as a whole seems to have forgotten is the DK.

We are constantly compairing ourselves to the warriors for talents, but forgetting our darker halves the Death Knight.

That being said, how about this for an 11 pt talent.


Hand of the Pure:

Mana cost - TBD
Cooldown - 35 sec

harnesses the Holy energy that surrounds all things, drawing the targeted enemy towards the Paladin and forcing the enemy to attack the Pally for 3 secs.


Lets stop going after the warrior abilities and look at the Death Knight since they are actually our negatives.



1. Fixes single target taunt for Prot and available at this tier to every spec.

2. Fixes targets getting out of range and instead of a charge type ability for all 3 pvp specs. And a Raiding spec Ret or Holy will not need.

Pretty much everything we are looking for.


Thoughts?
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Postby Warcraft » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:23 am

I don't think anybody has to post this for you because it's been posted plenty already. I also think that anybody who suggests this has absolutely no regard for the lore behind their class.

Paladins only utilize magic to focus energy and then release it as a burst, offensively or defensively. They do not use magic for metamorphosis, telekinesis, teleportation, or any other "sorcerer" crap.
Last edited by Warcraft on Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Prot 11 pt talent - our version of Death Grip

Postby Notorius101 » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:24 am

Tensen wrote:Could someone post this on the beta forums if they get a chance, I can't log in there from work...


With GC comments about wanting a talent to be useful for all specs (especially ret) if they wanted to go for it, one of the things the pally community as a whole seems to have forgotten is the DK.

We are constantly compairing ourselves to the warriors for talents, but forgetting our darker halves the Death Knight.

That being said, how about this for an 11 pt talent.


Hand of the Pure:

Mana cost - TBD
Cooldown - 35 sec

harnesses the Holy energy that surrounds all things, drawing the targeted enemy towards the Paladin and forcing the enemy to attack the Pally for 3 secs.


Lets stop going after the warrior abilities and look at the Death Knight since they are actually our negatives.



1. Fixes single target taunt for Prot and available at this tier to every spec.

2. Fixes targets getting out of range and instead of a charge type ability for all 3 pvp specs. And a Raiding spec Ret or Holy will not need.

Pretty much everything we are looking for.


Thoughts?


This is not a single target taunt this is a fixate for 3 seconds just like mocking blow, which is what death grip is.
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Postby Warcraft » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:31 am

Tensen wrote:Holy Shock, Hammer of Wrath ring any bells

Yes, they ring bells. They are two abilities that fit exactly under what I said, as does every other spell that a Paladin uses. Paladins use magic to release harnessed energy. Not for wizardry.
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Re: Prot 11 pt talent - our version of Death Grip

Postby Tensen » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:37 am

Notorius101 wrote:
Tensen wrote:Could someone post this on the beta forums if they get a chance, I can't log in there from work...


With GC comments about wanting a talent to be useful for all specs (especially ret) if they wanted to go for it, one of the things the pally community as a whole seems to have forgotten is the DK.

We are constantly compairing ourselves to the warriors for talents, but forgetting our darker halves the Death Knight.

That being said, how about this for an 11 pt talent.


Hand of the Pure:

Mana cost - TBD
Cooldown - 35 sec

harnesses the Holy energy that surrounds all things, drawing the targeted enemy towards the Paladin and forcing the enemy to attack the Pally for 3 secs.


Lets stop going after the warrior abilities and look at the Death Knight since they are actually our negatives.



1. Fixes single target taunt for Prot and available at this tier to every spec.

2. Fixes targets getting out of range and instead of a charge type ability for all 3 pvp specs. And a Raiding spec Ret or Holy will not need.

Pretty much everything we are looking for.


Thoughts?


This is not a single target taunt this is a fixate for 3 seconds just like mocking blow, which is what death grip is.



And still this is what taunt does...it focuses the target to fixate on you..putting you at the top of the aggro list, but you must continue to build aggro on the target until the effect wears off, at which point aggro can still be pulled off you correct?


And as to the lore part - since when did Blizzard start defining class balance and abilities based on lore? go see the origninal "lore" based descriptions of the classes and see how many of them still stand true. See many Blue aliens running around pre TBC? That is completely an inane argument, and to insinuate that I know nothing about lore is kind of insulting. A single target ability like this handles every single shortcoming of the class for any spec.

Dont think of it as Magically Teleporting someone, think of it as the same mechanics as a Hand spell...we harness the holiness inside us to bring the hostile towards us, making us a beacon of threat or using the Hand of the Dietiy (or Pure) to Protect those around us. But instead of RD which effects multiple target, this forces 1 target to come to us.

Gives PVP'rs their anti kite ability

Gives Prot its single target ability sans glyphing for it (which has been suggested but wasting a glyph spot for a NEEDED ability is not the purpose of glyphs)

Gives Ret and Holy the ability to pull from ranged if they want to tank 5 mans and at the position of 11 pts is reachable by any spec.
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Re: Prot 11 pt talent - our version of Death Grip

Postby Warcraft » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:53 am

Tensen wrote:And still this is what taunt does...it focuses the target to fixate on you..putting you at the top of the aggro list, but you must continue to build aggro on the target until the effect wears off, at which point aggro can still be pulled off you correct?

And as to the lore part - since when did Blizzard start defining class balance and abilities based on lore? go see the origninal "lore" based descriptions of the classes and see how many of them still stand true. See many Blue aliens running around pre TBC? That is completely an inane argument, and to insinuate that I know nothing about lore is kind of insulting. A single target ability like this handles every single shortcoming of the class for any spec.

Gives PVP'rs their anti kite ability

Gives Prot its single target ability sans glyphing for it (which has been suggested but wasting a glyph spot for a NEEDED ability is not the purpose of glyphs)

Gives Ret and Holy the ability to pull from ranged if they want to tank 5 mans and at the position of 11 pts is reachable by any spec.

No offense but I still think you just see another class's shiny new ability and want a copy for yourself. I didn't say people who suggest this don't know the lore, I said they have no regard for it.

Lore does matter in how different classes utilize melee or magic. What classes do you see that utilize either in a way different than they did when the game started? Maybe Shamans, who didn't use to have dual wielding, but not even, because they had dual wielding in older Warcraft games.

"Handle every single shortcoming of the class for any spec"? Go ask a few Holy Paladins if Death Grip would solve all their problems. Heck, even the Protection Paladins whose tree is supposed to house this ability would rather have an interrupt instead.

And fixate is not the same as taunt. Fixate does not increase your threat permenantly.
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Postby crabcrouton » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:55 am

It's been posted before. At least I've seen 2 posts with very similar ideas. Because those abilities are Mocking-Blow types, they're not so useful as a bonafide taunt.

The major issue is that Ret, even post-nerfs, will annihilate people with such a powerful battlefield-control tool. There's a reason why DK abilities only deal ~50% of weapon damage on their strikes for the most part. Allowing Ret to overcome the one weakness it has (kitability) and we'll be right back to nerfsville, population: all Paladins regardless of spec.

What Ret, Holy and Prot all need (badly) are anti-magic dampeners. Spellbreakers outside of BT have abilities like this. It also fits into the class very well that the Light enforces serenity/nonviolence even by force (kite a demon into Shat near A'dal and see what I mean).

For Ret, its weakness is that once in range, it has no tools to shut down a healer and just ends up relying on stun+burst. But with burst toned down in the recent nerfs, Ret badly needs a pressure applier. Spellbreak will put the kind of pressure on opponents like how other melee specs use CC/Snares/MS effects to do the same.

Prot to control incoming magic damage. The way I look at it, its effectiveness would be equal to Spell Reflect over time which are both far weaker than what the DKs have, allowing them to keep their dominant tanking focus. It's sad that Tankadins have zero active abilities to control magic damage (stun-immune-but-silencable mobs are very few so HoJ doesn't count, not really) when other plate tanks have at least 3 and Druids have huge HP pools to survive the armor-ignoring damage. Everyone was given rudimentary AoE tools, admittedly not as good as ours, but the pendulum needs to swing both ways.

Holy, well Holy needs all the help it can get quite frankly. Plus if the ability is at close-ish range, that'll encourage groups to keep their Holydins close to the action where the spec really oughta belong.
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Re: Prot 11 pt talent - our version of Death Grip

Postby crabcrouton » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:57 am

Tensen wrote:And still this is what taunt does...it focuses the target to fixate on you..putting you at the top of the aggro list, but you must continue to build aggro on the target until the effect wears off, at which point aggro can still be pulled off you correct?

Incorrect. After the duration on Mocking Blow wears off, the Warrior tank falls back to the same threat he was before he used it, added by the amount of threat his attacks did in the meantime. In fact there's a glyph that turns Mocking Blow into a taunt specifically for this reason.
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Re: Prot 11 pt talent - our version of Death Grip

Postby Tensen » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:09 pm

Warcraft wrote:
Tensen wrote:And still this is what taunt does...it focuses the target to fixate on you..putting you at the top of the aggro list, but you must continue to build aggro on the target until the effect wears off, at which point aggro can still be pulled off you correct?

And as to the lore part - since when did Blizzard start defining class balance and abilities based on lore? go see the origninal "lore" based descriptions of the classes and see how many of them still stand true. See many Blue aliens running around pre TBC? That is completely an inane argument, and to insinuate that I know nothing about lore is kind of insulting. A single target ability like this handles every single shortcoming of the class for any spec.

Gives PVP'rs their anti kite ability

Gives Prot its single target ability sans glyphing for it (which has been suggested but wasting a glyph spot for a NEEDED ability is not the purpose of glyphs)

Gives Ret and Holy the ability to pull from ranged if they want to tank 5 mans and at the position of 11 pts is reachable by any spec.

No offense but I still think you just see another class's shiny new ability and want a copy for yourself. I didn't say people who suggest this don't know the lore, I said they have no regard for it.

"Handle every single shortcoming of the class for any spec"? Go ask a few Holy Paladins if Death Grip would solve all their problems. Heck, even the Protection Paladins whose tree is supposed to house this ability would rather have an interrupt instead.

And fixate is not the same as taunt. Fixate does not increase your threat permenantly.



I do not see a "shiny new ability" and want it for myself, what I see is a mechaninc that works for what the Protection Pally needs. As they seem to have given every ability we have to the other classes already, why not work one of theirs into our spec - which, in case you have not noticed, has not been done to the equality of the other tanking classes. Those threads are already on here and you are more than welcome to see the shortcomings of the Tankadin vs. the other tanking classes. The difference I see, is that most of the threads on all the forums are looking for a single target taunt like mechanic like the warrior taunt. This gives us a different "flavor" of mechanic of tank...yes it is the same as the DK, but why not? Where did theirs come from? Are they not fallen Paladins? Did this ability magically apear soley to be used by them? Has any DK we have faced prior to WOLTK had this ability? (to go back to your lore based arguement)

Nor does taunt...it increase your threat to 110% of the current top threat lead for it duration, does not force the target to you indefinately...you must build threat to stay on top of the aggro list. A "fixate" ability does the same thing for a tank, and enables them to build aggro enough to stay at the top of the list. This would just need to be "tweaked" to not lose the threat gained during the period.

EDIT: I just looked up a couple of differnet versions of the DG spell on a couple of different sites - all of them show the debuff as "taunted" not fixated. Can this be confirmed?

I did misspeak on that fixes every shortcoming...what I meant was the ability would fix all 3 classes ability to TANK...which is what this forum is about.

As to an interrupt - if they fix the way HOJ is supposed to work, we will be fine. ATM it does nothing, I have yet to see it interrupt anything that is stun resist.

Anyway, I tried...
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Postby crabcrouton » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:43 pm

Don't feel down Tensen, it's difficult to take criticism but you do come out of it for the better so keep discussing.

As for DG: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=49576 you can see it doesn't have the Apply Aura Taunt effects on it. Equally, taunts will specify that they have "no effect if the target is already attack you" as Dark Command, the DK's true taunt, does: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=56222

Let's say Tank has 500 threat with 100 tps generation and Hunter has 2000 threat, stops attacking so has 0 tps. If the tank used Mocking Blow, he would be at 2200 threat and have aggro. After 6 seconds would be at 2800 threat, but then the DG effect ends and he goes back to 500 threat + 600 = 1100 threat. The mob goes straight for the Hunter again.

The tank would have needed to produce 1319 threat by himself in the 6 seconds in order to have 1819 threat necessary once MB effect ends. 1819 because the hunter's 2000 needs to be below 110% of the tank.

This is not the same as Taunt because once used, the Warrior will be at 2200 threat permanently even if he did nothing else. So 2200 will always be > 2000 and the Warrior will have permanent aggro.
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Postby Tensen » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:55 pm

http://www.wowwiki.com/Death_Grip

shows the associated debuff as "taunted" not fixated.

so now I'm even more confused by where this "fixated" comes from.

So far, I've not seen the term anywhere when associated with Death Grip.

It also seems to interrupt casting, therefore giving us an interrupt as a tank.


And to counter your arguement about the threat issue being needed. The threat needed is interesting, but lets use some realistic numbers...DG plus AS/HOTR = upwards of 5k instant threat not counting if its undead, plus TPS is upwards of 2K not 500. So I see that as less of an issue than you make it out to be. And Ranged is at 130% of threat, not 110%. But I do see your point, I just think you might be wrong in the ability to not hold aggro once its generated at the 110% mark...unless you've been OT for 1/2 a fight. But I do see your point.

Anyway, is the mechanic in it current form any worse than the way RD functions? I think not.

And thanks for the /chin up!
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Postby Amanor » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:50 pm

crabcrouton wrote:What Ret, Holy and Prot all need (badly) are anti-magic dampeners. Spellbreakers outside of BT have abilities like this. It also fits into the class very well that the Light enforces serenity/nonviolence even by force (kite a demon into Shat near A'dal and see what I mean).

For Ret, its weakness is that once in range, it has no tools to shut down a healer and just ends up relying on stun+burst. But with burst toned down in the recent nerfs, Ret badly needs a pressure applier. Spellbreak will put the kind of pressure on opponents like how other melee specs use CC/Snares/MS effects to do the same.

Prot to control incoming magic damage. The way I look at it, its effectiveness would be equal to Spell Reflect over time which are both far weaker than what the DKs have, allowing them to keep their dominant tanking focus. It's sad that Tankadins have zero active abilities to control magic damage (stun-immune-but-silencable mobs are very few so HoJ doesn't count, not really) when other plate tanks have at least 3 and Druids have huge HP pools to survive the armor-ignoring damage. Everyone was given rudimentary AoE tools, admittedly not as good as ours, but the pendulum needs to swing both ways.

Holy, well Holy needs all the help it can get quite frankly. Plus if the ability is at close-ish range, that'll encourage groups to keep their Holydins close to the action where the spec really oughta belong.


I actually prefer this idea to the OP's as far as an 11 point talent goes. Spell mitigation for Prot, pressure on healers for Ret, and a way to lessen incoming magical damage on those Holy is healing. Less useful for Holy, perhaps, but damn nice for the other two.
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Postby Seraphia » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:48 pm

Warcraft wrote:I don't think anybody has to post this for you because it's been posted plenty already. I also think that anybody who suggests this has absolutely no regard for the lore behind their class.

Paladins only utilize magic to focus energy and then release it as a burst, offensively or defensively. They do not use magic for metamorphosis, telekinesis, teleportation, or any other "sorcerer" crap.


Yea plenty of burst in our Aura's and Blessings. :roll:
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Postby Lore » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:49 pm

Blizzard has been very clear that they do not want to give us a copy of another class ability.

So, regardless of how nice the idea might be, it's not really a valid suggestion.
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