Remove Advertisements

Venting thread

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby Andryana » Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:18 am

To some people we can't complain no matter what.. we just should accept blindly everything blizzard does without any contestation, then there isn't even a point for these boards to exist, i don't like whining too, but there are issues that we have that some of the people addressed only to be met with the "STFU and stop the QQ", and no we shouldn't have to wait for 3.3 for these problems to be fixed.

We are good and perfectly viable, but stuff like locking out our shield wall for two minutes when using AW is just plain stupid.
Image
Andryana
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:30 am

Postby Barathorn » Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:27 am

Ulushnar wrote:
Macha wrote:QQing might be futile...just like QQing about QQing. ^^ It's all the same at the end of the day, it's all the same. Crying and QQing about people thinking differently.


Not really.

The difference is, I'm complaining to the people who are currently exhibiting the behaviour that annoys me. Hopefully with the understanding of the distress it causes, they'll abate their behaviour.

The other people on here are complaining to people who by and large agree with them but are equally powerless to implement useful change. That can't be constructive.


While I agree that QQing about QQing isnt productive and should be avoided if possible, in fairness its been all QQ for a month now and I think I speak for some of us who have been here a long time [not that that counts for anything] when I say we are sick to death of the endless bleating about how badly we are being treated as a class.

Man/women up FSS. You are a Tank, an important part of the raid/guild/community. If you really can't handle what is happening, then DONT TANK and stop posting whinging threads about how unfair it is. If you can handle what is happening then stop complaining and get on with it. Yes we aren't working properly yet, it will get fixed, make the best of it that you can for the time being.

The crying and self pity shite has to stop. Make constructive posts, make the difference, just stop crying like small children. The people who made and run this site deserve better than what ANY of us are currently giving them. You think they want the site to be full of 'The end of the world is nigh threads'?

Seriously, we all should know better.

Barathorn
Sabindeus wrote:I feel like I should get a t-shirt made for me that says "Not Socially Awkward, Just Fat".

Brekkie wrote:The world will always need people to dig ditches.
User avatar
Barathorn
Moderator
 
Posts: 7101
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:08 am
Location: Hitting Panda's over the head with a cricket bat shouting Get Orf My Lawn!

Postby Daho » Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:40 am

I'd almost agree, QQ's get you nowhere...unless you were a class that QQ'd about ret Paladins. That got ya three hot fixes real quick.
Daho
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:47 am

Postby ulushnar » Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:42 am

Andryana wrote:To some people we can't complain no matter what.. we just should accept blindly everything blizzard does without any contestation, then there isn't even a point for these boards to exist, i don't like whining too, but there are issues that we have that some of the people addressed only to be met with the "STFU and stop the QQ", and no we shouldn't have to wait for 3.3 for these problems to be fixed.


I'm not saying "blindly accept it" in the slightest. On the contrary. Go to the official Blizzard boards, post your concerns, welcome the trolls who take potshots at you, and if your thread gets locked reiterate them. Do so time and time again until Blizz looks at the volume of threads and realises "THE PALADINS ARE UPSET".

QQing here on the other hand, where there's no official blizzard presence does very little to solve the problem. As an analogy, You're trying to change US domestic policy from Luxembourg.
Be careful when you argue with trolls, lest you become one.
User avatar
ulushnar
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 5442
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 6:56 am
Location: Bollocks, Scotland

Postby Barathorn » Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:46 am

Daho wrote:I'd almost agree, QQ's get you nowhere...unless you were a class that QQ'd about ret Paladins. That got ya three hot fixes real quick.


Ret pallies were broken and overpowered and anyone who thought that they were going to stay exactly as they were, regardless of beta performance in raids should have known better, it was always going to be an issue that we got some overspill, but dont pretend you didnt expect it, you all have more intelligence than that.

Cmon people, as Ulushnar said, stop trying to change the world from the wrong place. We will be fine, we just have to share everything we find thats positive about our beloved class.

And bitterness....oh the bitterness I sense here, just leave it outside people, it really isn't very attractive.

Barathorn.
Sabindeus wrote:I feel like I should get a t-shirt made for me that says "Not Socially Awkward, Just Fat".

Brekkie wrote:The world will always need people to dig ditches.
User avatar
Barathorn
Moderator
 
Posts: 7101
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:08 am
Location: Hitting Panda's over the head with a cricket bat shouting Get Orf My Lawn!

Postby Daho » Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:48 am

Ummm didn't mention anything about whether they were overpowered or not, so get over yourself. I was talking about QQ's...duh
Daho
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:47 am

Postby Andryana » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:17 am

Ulushnar wrote:
Andryana wrote:To some people we can't complain no matter what.. we just should accept blindly everything blizzard does without any contestation, then there isn't even a point for these boards to exist, i don't like whining too, but there are issues that we have that some of the people addressed only to be met with the "STFU and stop the QQ", and no we shouldn't have to wait for 3.3 for these problems to be fixed.


I'm not saying "blindly accept it" in the slightest. On the contrary. Go to the official Blizzard boards, post your concerns, welcome the trolls who take potshots at you, and if your thread gets locked reiterate them. Do so time and time again until Blizz looks at the volume of threads and realises "THE PALADINS ARE UPSET".

QQing here on the other hand, where there's no official blizzard presence does very little to solve the problem. As an analogy, You're trying to change US domestic policy from Luxembourg.


I'm not saying that i like QQ'ing either, it doesn't help and just helps spreading the negativity.

But some people brought up some valid points of our weaknesses and we should be able to be talk about it.. i agree that stuff like oh i'm rerolling my warrior, blizzard hates us,etc doesn't help at all! Yet we should be able to talk about what they are doing wrong.
Image
Andryana
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:30 am

Postby moduspwnens » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:18 am

I guess it depends on what you consider to be "QQing." I certainly won't take credit specifically for any Blizzard changes, but I think this board overall can. We started the thread that got the HotR mechanics changed, we started the thread that got our 3% more mitigation, we started the thread that got GC to admit our blocks don't scale well with high end gear, and probably several other things.

In fact, I'm having difficulty finding something that got changed that wasn't already clearly pointed out by this very community. I guess you could call that more constructive criticism than QQ, though, but the line can be blurry.
I rule.
moduspwnens
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Shattered Hand

Postby Sagedin » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:19 am

Barathorn wrote:Ret pallies were broken and overpowered and anyone who thought that they were going to stay exactly as they were, regardless of beta performance in raids should have known better, it was always going to be an issue that we got some overspill, but dont pretend you didnt expect it, you all have more intelligence than that.


As I understood the sustained dps of retribution wasn't that far off. I might be mistaken about this, but saw that flying around on some of the forums. And if I recall correctly the devs post said they wanted to reduce burst dps without it affecting sustained dps too much.

All this I agreed with and assumed some tuning of ret burst. But seeing the changes I fail see the point of most of them. It certainly doesn't help the perception of Blizzard going to town with the nerfbat just before launch and telling the class to sit tight and wait for all the "small" fixes untill after launch. At some point it just becomes disallusioning (is that even a word?) to look at another class and wonder why it is okay for them to be a couple of percent better, but when you are it needs to be adjusted to being a couple percent worse "but close enough".

I know we gained a lot and are currently a lot closer to being equal then before WotLK, but the attitude displayed by developers (you can't have that single target taunt you need to tank some encounters because it would make you to similar to other classes & paladins are a bit behind and probably block scales worse then warriors, but we'll look at that after it has become a problem) has reduced my expectations to actually being equal to about 5%.

Ahhhhhhh, done venting :D
Sagedin
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:31 pm

Postby amadiss » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:20 am

OK so how to express non-optimistic concerns without been labeled QQ?


Honestly: Define QQ

So from now on lets just define eufemisms or key words that are
"good etiquette" for expressing non-optimistic concerns.

I dont mind changing lanaguage as long as i can transmit EXACTLY THE SAME IDEA.


So suggestions? Here is some blank space:
amadiss
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:08 pm

Postby Splug » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:25 am

Heh, I remember a few months back, when warriors were in a pretty sad state in wotlk. There were no small number of "lol look at all the warriors crying, we'd never do that" posts.

By and large, the reaction here has been very level-headed. There's always the loud minority - same as the warrior situation - but overall there have still been a very high level of rational posts and people looking to see things fixed rather than wallowing over how terrible it is now. As I said when things were down on my end - they're taking passes at it, just hang in there and it should come together. The way things look at 70 is not very indicative of anything at 80, and even if paladins are a bit behind the eight ball in Naxx, a lot of us have seen the content, and the reaction has almost unanimously been that it's a joke. Anyone who has done Sunwell before and after 3.0 should be aware of how trivial content currently is (I was in a pug on my shaman alt last night, we had KJ at 30%...) - Naxx isn't significantly harder. It may get tuned up, but they've said their intent is for it to be a training dungeon, so it sounds like that won't happen. Obsidian Sanctuary and Eye of Eternity are a little harder, but not appreciably. At the level of difficulty initial wotlk content exhibits, the threshold for error is so large that the granularity needed for classes to be reasonable is very high. The deadline for fine-tuned balancing is not November 13th; it is effectively 3.1. Hang in there; it may be lopsided when it goes live, but the extra month or two of leveling / early raid content gives Blizzard ample time to react to their last-minute fixes on retribution before the hammer really comes down.

I have no doubt in my mind that retribution's ability to deal damage while divine shielded needed to be reduced/removed. They've finally started to attack the real problem people are seeing in arenas and battlegrounds, and while output numbers tuning was also needed, divine shield was the heart of the problem. That said, I think this was a poor implementation of that fix, due to the fallout in other specs (prot being the primary victim, but holy takes a hit as well). Moreover, it doesn't actually prevent the "unstoppable aggressor" in a battleground; retribution can still crank out heavy damage while immune, even though avenging wrath is no longer an option. They're on the right train, wrong track. But there's not much to do about it beyond seeing what they do to fix or compensate the situation is. With any luck, they'll get one more iteration on trying to resolve it before wrath ships. If not, the deadline for tanking balance is quite a bit later than the deadline for leveling pace balance; it would have been better to see it all even right out the gate, but que sera, sera.

(... I don't know how to do accents on the a's, sorry.)

-Splug
Active raid character: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... an&n=Spyte
255 characters is not enough to fit my alts' armories in.
User avatar
Splug
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:16 am

Postby Torquemada » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:32 am

Thanks for your always honest and sage advice, Splug. I think you hit the nail on the head about DS. I'm wondering if they just shouldn't change it to be what Divine Protection was pre-3.0 and not allow melee, or just not allow offensive spells at all as well. Then they could either change Sacred Duty to have it function as normal for Protection, or not, but get rid of the Forebearance for AW. Thus it's still a useful ability for PVE, and not a broken as Hell combo for PVP. Don't know if it's "TO THE GROUND" enough for Ret, though.
User avatar
Torquemada
 
Posts: 1678
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:00 am
Location: Virginia

Postby Mortehl » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:40 am

Splug for the most part, I agree with your well thought out post. I will say that honestly, even I need to look past my grievances with the last change and admit to myself that initially it doesn't matter.

But I won't. The draconian approach taken effectively eliminates the use of AW for all three specs. With two minutes of forbearance, NO spec can risk using wings.

Prot can't because we may need shield wall. Bye bye 20% instant threat.

Holy and ret can't because they can never run the risk of losing an oh-shit rescue button. It is far more insulting to holy which never had any use for the spell at all except in the odd kill screen shot. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, but this is simply a heavy handed response to a problem that finesse could easily fix.

By simply adding forbearance only to divine shield/divine protection while making either spell cancel out avenging wrath and visa versa, the issue of retribution god-burst would be resolved.
Arthas, we're coming for you. (Eventually)
Mortehl
Moderator
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:25 am
Location: Naxx 10 prepping for Naxx 25

Postby moduspwnens » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:42 am

I still say Divine Protection + Wings isn't that crazy. It's not as crazy as Cloak of Shadows, Evasion, Cheat Death, and all the other goodies in a rogue's toolbox, nor as good as Resto Druids in 2's and 3's. Nor as good as Soul Link and Fel Domination. Or Mortal Strike. Or Mana Burn. Seriously, if you could have any of those things by giving up bubble and wings at the same time, wouldn't you do it?

I think it was just sudden, that's all. It could have been a defining class characteristic. "When you see him pop Wings and Bubble, run!" Or, "Save your trinket for when he pops wings and bubble!" Or heck, they're all on GCDs, and bubble still makes him swing twice as slow. Bubble + Wings + Judgement + Divine Storm + Crusader Strike is 7.5 seconds assuming perfect latency, and 9 seconds if he stuns you first.

If the burst was out of hand, sure, nerf it. But I don't think 20% extra damage while bubble was popped is why the class had problems, and I think several other classes have tools MUCH more powerful than this five minute cooldown that takes 9 seconds minimum to execute correctly.
I rule.
moduspwnens
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Shattered Hand

Postby Nicki » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:47 am

Elsie wrote:The mere fact that Modus, Worldi, myself, and others who have been long term paladins through some of the worst times is indicative of the state of paladins and the recent changes.

Frankly, we're fed up.


Add katamai too that list!

You could add me but I already decided too reroll warrior

Frankly as much as katamai hates me for it. I love my warrior's game play more and more...It is challenging, rewarding and it doesn't have any real limitations. Its alot more rewarding than the paladin game play...

The devs forget how much the 2 min forbearance on avenging wrath affects prot and bubble wall. Its a shame they had a real chance too make this class a great tank class sadly I dont see the point of paladins unless you go back too needing niche tanking. In which case you are simply leaching a raid spot which was never ever my intention on nicki.

I worked hard too main tank Kael for my guilds first kill (before attunements were lifted but after his 1000 nerfs). I worked hard in general sadly the raid leader of that guild was blind and kept using the warrior tank (who the next week didn't get the shield or move out the flame strike causing 2 wipes that weren't needed)...

In the storm of all this RET nerfing, prot is becomming the unseen tanker of the nerfs...

I hope they give prot some love soon else prot will be renigated too failsafe 5 man tanks...
To face death and glory with an equal smile
Nicki
 
Posts: 353
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:04 pm

PreviousNext

Return to WotLK

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
?php } else { ?