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Venting thread

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:05 pm

uke wrote:Hey, here's a thought:

How about chill the heck out and see what develops? A quick perusal of the bluetracker posts have a plethora of posts from GC this weekend addressing a wide range of topics. Most notably that no nerfs/buffs they've made are set in stone and will be changed if it's too far in one or another direction.

Or, you could just run around (like usual) going "OMG Blizzard hates paladins!" while wearing your tinfoil hats and shouting "conspiracy!"

Agreed. The blizzard hates us stuff has no place here. When you think something sucks you are free to say so, it's not going to be locked, unless you go over the top with the blizzard conspiracy stuff. We were needlessly nerfed in my opinion, and when that happens I will post about it and give feedback to blizzard about it. Some of you will disagree some won't, but as long as it's about the issues and there isn't flaming or the blizz hates me crap, it's not a problem.

uke wrote:TL;DR - stop assuming the worst. The days of no feedback and no needed changes for a year are gone. I'd hope the entire beta process these past 5-ish months would have shown that.


Yeah, I'm not so sure. In the grand scheme of things this beta process is eerily similar to both the previous processes. The differences this time are that they communicated more, which is great, and they said they wanted us to be equal MTs, which is also great.

However, we were clearly nerfed with these ret changes. We don't know what the priority to fix that is. We know and GC admitted there's likely an issue with our block scaling. We have the issue with taunt for which they are being unbelievably stubborn, contradictory and flat out stupid about. There's a lot of heel dragging going on.

I have no doubt they will want us to be right where they said, but I do have serious questions what the priorities and resources will be to undo our nerfs, and keep us inline going forward, much less when the blocking issue creeps up.

They have a lot on their plate and in TBC were incredibly slow about making adjustments. GC has promised for better, but admitted he wasn't around back then and doesn't want to speculate why those decision or made. He also hinted that fixing an underpowered class is less of a priority as fixing an overpowered class.

When it comes to mitigation, the current difference is deemed insignificant, and even though we are on the lower end of that I'd agree. The same holds for our health. However, I can easily see a situation where that mitigation stretches a little, perhaps not enough to unseat an existing pally MT, but enough to be an issue. The easy response being that it is insignificant. I just don't have confidence that if we fall to say around 3% less mitigation, that there will be changes made.

I hope I'm wrong, but now that I see push coming to shove, and time being short and the way they are handling things, I have little confidence.
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Postby Macha » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:41 pm

The reason I am getting fed up with things is not that we are totally underpowered or that my warrior has it easier.

This is not new. I knew that when I started a prot paladin back when we couldn't block when using instants. I did it for the challenge, I wanted to make things work despite people thinking it could not. On the server I play on, I was among the first.

But things have changed. I do not need to prove anything anymore, I already proved myself. Largely, prot Paladins are accepted now. I don't have to fight for my spot, even though I chose to play a Paladin who currently is behind in most things and lacks important tools.


And that makes things worse for me. It might be considered neurotic in a way, but I really am a person who really wants to serve their raid to the best of my abilities. And now that warriors and Paladins are so eerily similar, as in "Paladins can do almost all of what warriors can, and warriors everything important that Paladins can", I just can't justify the Paladin for myself. Before, even tho one could claim that we were severly underpowered, I had very good arguments.

Who'd do MH and make it a breeze? Who could absolutely ensure not to get a crushing after the change? Who'd absolutely never get sheared, and still kept the mitigation benefits?

Now? All I have is "Yeah, weaker, but it doesn't matter". The niches I really liked are gone. So are the advantages. Being better against burst used to be our advantage. It isn't anymore.


I completely realize that a Paladin will be completely fine to tank every wotlk boss. I just can't justify the spot to myself anymore. We can't even get a stupid single target taunt, we're still ever so slightly behind, and on top of it we can't even be sure that the other two specs won't cause our spec to get its legs cut off as collateral damage.
And we also have evidence that we are designed to be behind by choice, not accident. Our HP scaling would have ensured we were ~400 HP ahead in t9 content or even later. But it gots nerfed, and now we're double that behind again. We're just not allowed to have an advantage, anywhere.

It's part perception, true. But it causes me to see the Paladin as unsafe. I can justify "definitely worse in most, but powerful in A, B and C" but I cannot justify "can do almost as many things as the other tank, just slightly worse" That WOTLK basically disappointed all my expectations for the Paladin (no more actually interactive gameplay unlike other classes, still no way to interact with the mobs, still flawed mechanics) just is icing on the cake. "You will be fixed later" isn't enough.


I still disagree that Blizzard "Hates" us, though. They do not. They just don't know what to do with us. At all. Just look at the mess they made in the Ret tree. They still don't have the foggiest idea what to do about it.
And I am starting to wonder if they ever will.
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Postby fafhrd » Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:06 pm

baghead wrote:I know it sounds a little like paranoia, but at some point you've gotta say - maybe we're not imagining things.

I'm not suggesting that 'blizzard hates us' but perhaps there is some unwritten rule in blizz HQ that 'pallys will never be allowed to be a better dps/tank' because of X.

I'm not going to suggest what X is, but if you were to look back in the history of the game, they've outright lied to us in bliz posts while still maintain the above. (It may even be a non-obvious/intuitive valid reason)

You also have to ask yourself another question. If they've lied directly to us in the past, why are we suddenly believing them now? I'm not suggesting they are out to hate on us, etc etc, but maybe there is some reason they feel they need to keep us nerfed. For example, the comment in blizzcon (paraphrased as "or else everyone would be playing a prot pally" was very sobering for me).

I do hope that prot pallys (and pallys in general) are fixed for wrath but I no longer have any faith.


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Postby Sonic » Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:44 pm

Ya know, "the whole bliiz hates us", might not be true but it be nice if blizzard treated us alot better.

Anyone who's been playgin since the release knows the whole story. Last minute revamp of our entire combat system, broken crusader seal, overshadowed class review by AQ, backwards tanking tree, forced into healing, half ass tanking system in bc, lacking ret system, holy a struggle in arena.. etc.

Seriously what other class in this game has inter-spec wars? Where ret was the whipping boy, the holies looked down their nose at everyone and prot was struggling to keep up with warriors. It's only been recently that the each of the specs have started to come together as a whole.

But now with ret being OP after being at the bottom so long, it's being made into the scapegoat and effecting holy/prot. Yeah thanks blizz, nice way to bring the class together by pointing to one spec as the problem.

What really pisses me off in the midst of all this is that the community comes up with some very good, and some bad, ideas that would work far better than anything blizzard has done. And yet all we can do is sit on our asses and complain while blizzard acts like they have no clue what to do with us. Even better is the fact that deathknights are going to come out freaking awesome and have had tons of attention. Is it really too much to ask for some priorities?

I won't stop playing my paladin. And I'm lucky enough to be a a guild that doesn't care abuot the min/maxing bullshit and wants me to tank for them. But it be really nice to stand shoulder to shoulder with the other classes instead of being the running gag for 4+ years.
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Postby crabcrouton » Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:58 pm

Did you guys know that in alpha, Trueshot Aura used to be a Paladin's Aura?

They took it from us, gave it to Hunters and called it a day.

I'm sure they had their reasoning and I don't think anybody honestly think Blizzard is out to get Paladins. That would be mad, they're in this to make money and broken classes aren't popular.

However, the way they go about dealing with Paladin issues is always the bottom-barrel approach. Instead of waiting for major patches to implement carefully thought-out changes, they instead make a beeline for the easiest changes with the most amount of collateral damage to Prot and Holy.

Whatever happened to "we won't release it until it's ready"? I think other classes managed to escape major nerfs for entire patches, sometimes even more, despite being heavily OP. The reasoning was because it took that long for them to implement precise and intelligent changes to have maximum results at minimum collateral damage.

When it comes to Paladins, they immediately break the mold and bat the entire class with three consecutive hotfixes rather than using their standard operating procedure. I'm not saying this is intentional conspiracy or anything; it's just an outgrowth with the lax approach taken to Paladins.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:07 am

To be clear, I don't agree with the notion that we're necessarily "behind" any more than Druids are "behind." We're "behind" in avoidance and DR because we make it up by being able to block every incoming hit. With the increase in the power of block value, one unblocked hit by the warrior means the Paladin now has more health (in most cases). That would never happen to the Paladin. Also, AD got buffed drastically with the increase of power of block value, Divine Protection, Divine Guardian from other Paladins, and any of the new %-based spells castable on others. This includes Blessing of Sacrifice from other Paladins, Spirit Link, Intervene (although now not necessarily practical), and probably several other skills I'm not thinking of at the moment.

Are we behind in DR? Yeah, but it's supposed to be that way. So are Druids. Our "selling point" is that we have DR and health similar to a Warrior, except with better mitigation of unpredictable burst (arguably the worst kind). Well, and that we bring HoSanc, HoSalv, a blessing, superior AoE tanking for threat (the only real kind there is). The thing that worries me (and always have) is the way that Warriors will always be OK, and more recently, the half-baked hotfix and haphazard nerfing of all three specs while trying to nerf Ret.

Looking at them now, though, it doesn't appear to be as big of a deal as I originally thought. They're under a lot of pressure as the expansion looms. It may just be that I got the [item=13335]Deathcharger's Reins[/item] on my Paladin tonight (ty, ty), but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on this one.
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Postby ulushnar » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:17 am

Elsie wrote:The mere fact that Modus, Worldi, myself, and others who have been long term paladins through some of the worst times is indicative of the state of paladins and the recent changes.


There were no Blood Elf Paladins during the "worst times" for the class. That's because the very worst times happened pre-TBC when we didn't even have the tanking abilities we had at launch. I wasn't even a Paladin back in those days, but a lot of my friends were and most of them got quickly frustrated with the "sit back and heal" mentality.

Yes these are deeply annoying times. Their rebuild of Retribution has had unpleasant knock-on effects for us. I have faith however that if we suffer for it, they'll fix us. Looking at the state of the classes tanking abilities since the Paladin patch (1.9 i think), it's definitely improved, and I believe it'll continue doing so.
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Postby Elsie » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:30 am

There were no Blood Elf Paladins during the "worst times" for the class. That's because the very worst times happened pre-TBC when we didn't even have the tanking abilities we had at launch. I wasn't even a Paladin back in those days, but a lot of my friends were and most of them got quickly frustrated with the "sit back and heal" mentality.

Some of worst != absolute worst.
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Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:55 am

Ulushnar wrote:
Elsie wrote:The mere fact that Modus, Worldi, myself, and others who have been long term paladins through some of the worst times is indicative of the state of paladins and the recent changes.


There were no Blood Elf Paladins during the "worst times" for the class. That's because the very worst times happened pre-TBC when we didn't even have the tanking abilities we had at launch. I wasn't even a Paladin back in those days, but a lot of my friends were and most of them got quickly frustrated with the "sit back and heal" mentality.

Back in vanilla, Paladins weren't meant to tank. They just couldn't do it. Prot tree was merely a leveling tree, Holy shield didn't exist.
Back then i was playing my priest, and oddly enough, we had a prot paladin in the guild. While he was mainly a healer, on some specific trashs he was tanking since aoetanking was win win. He couldn't tank much more simply cause there was no spiritual attunement, so end of mana = end of tanking :)

That werent "the worst time", tankadins just didn't exist at all. People who rolled paladins were 90% of the times doing it on the purpose of healing. Actually, myself as well had rolled a paladin to stay behind and heal. The fact i found tanking more enjoyable depended mainly because my main at that time was a prot warrior.
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Postby caboom » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:01 am

Let's just hope they find us "broken" at 80 and they will roll back some changes, since at least it seems we have their attention.
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Postby ulushnar » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:11 am

Elsie wrote:Some of worst != absolute worst.


And once again, I don't see anything in TBC that even approached the badness that was the pre-2.0 days. Ask how many Paladins progression-tanked Naxx pre-2.0 and compare it to the number of Tankadins in Sunwell.

As for some of the great trials of our spec:

Mp5 on tanking gear - got fixed around 2.1/2.2.
Lowest health of any tanking class - got fixed in 2.3.
Lowest mitigation of any tanking class - Hello SotT buff!
Poor single-target/non-reactive threat - got fixed in 3.0 with HotR/ShoR, got slightly broke again with the juddgement nerfs, and will be looked at once they're happy with Ret. Hell, we've still got a broken JoL to help with threat in the meantime.

Apart from that we've had Protection Paladins progression-tank every non-gimmick boss in TBC. And that was when it wasn't a stated design goal for us to be Main Tanks.

Nerfs suck, especially when the nerf is caused by a need to balance a spec that isn't "ours". However, the Devs acknowledged that there'll be a knock-on effect for Prot and Holy and they're going to look at it once they've got Ret where it needs to be.
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Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:14 am

Ulush, you cannot consider Vanilla, simply because in vanilla paladin tank tree just didn't exist. Pretending to tank as paladin was as wrong as pretending to DPS as shaman.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby ulushnar » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:14 am

Worldie wrote:That werent "the worst time", tankadins just didn't exist at all.


Oh they existed, we even had a couple in my group. They were basically add-tanks for the most part and off-healers/melee "DPS" when that wasn't needed.

Hell, Blizz even tried to throw them a bone around 1.10-ish with the Deathbone plate set (mp5 and +def ftw! ;)).
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:19 am

I certainly don't count vanilla. They couldn't make Paladins tanks because they had to balance Paladins with Shamans (which already favored Paladins a good bit).
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Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:19 am

Deathbone set was just as full of fail as first retribution tiers.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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