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Now that AW causes forbearance again

All things related to the expansion

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Postby baghead » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:40 am

Worldie wrote:Lots of people tend to love the shield block "mini shield wall", but they probably have no idea of how horrible having a 30% chance to get a unblocked hit is.

This returns us to our 'how spiky is spike damage' discussion :)

Seriously though, I'd love to get some numbers for prot pally vs prot warrior in best of slot gear in naxx. (ie. BV, miss, dodge, parry, block, armor)

Then we can sit down and just straight out do the math ourselves. Without having beta access it boils down to assumptions which makes me a sad panda.
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Postby Fridmarr » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:41 am

baghead wrote:
Worldie wrote:Lots of people tend to love the shield block "mini shield wall", but they probably have no idea of how horrible having a 30% chance to get a unblocked hit is.

This returns us to our 'how spiky is spike damage' discussion :)

Seriously though, I'd love to get some numbers for prot pally vs prot warrior in best of slot gear in naxx. (ie. BV, miss, dodge, parry, block, armor)

Then we can sit down and just straight out do the math ourselves. Without having beta access it boils down to assumptions which makes me a sad panda.


I'd imagine you can find that gear on woltk.wowhead.com
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Postby Bobness » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:50 am

Katamai wrote:
Knaughty wrote:<amazing bunch of self-deceit and Blizzard fanboy dribble>


Yeh, it's all peachy. All hail GC, the guy who calls us collateral dmg after nerfing us due to the way he and his team balance ret.

Get a grip and stop being a blind Blizzard zealot who believes everything they say. GC said this, GC said that... well guess what? GC says a lot of things and then changes stories.

Need i remind you of his "surgical" comments just before he nerfed the whole damn class in order to nerf ret? Grow up... you're just as bad as us "QQers" with your googly eyes and Blizzard worship.


I think you need to remember that Knaughty is deliberately bringing into line the "opposite angle", it's a fair thing to do, we shouldn't lose sight of what we have. But reading between the lines there is a fair amount of intentional windup, take a deep breath don't let it get to you. Some people like being diametrically opposed.

We are essentially two different sides of the same argument..We all agree some minor tweaks are required.

However some people believe it will happen soon & some people believe it will happen during the next xpac.
Last edited by Bobness on Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:51 am

I don't recall who exactly (i think modus or fiorina) already made what you said comparing war with best gear available to paladin with best gear available.

Turned out that the warrior overally took less damage (assuming use of SB every CD), but spiked a lot more than the paladin.
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Postby Katamai » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:59 am

Bobness wrote:I think you need to remember that Knaughty is deliberately bringing into line the "opposite angle", it's a fair thing to do, we shouldn't lose sight of what we have. But reading between the lines there is a fair amount intentional windup, take a deep breath don't let it get to you. Some people like being diametrically opposed.

We are essentially two different sides of the same argument..We all agree some minor tweaks are required.

However some people believe it will happen soon & some people believe it will happen during the next xpac.


What it seems to me is that while i am aware of the good stuff and keep them in perspective, some people like him just sugarcoat everything and do the name calling game to anyone and everyone who disagrees with them.

Yes we got better, but that doesn't mean much when you look at the big picture - warriors got better too. And while our improvement may look bigger due to the limitations we had in the past and how we were designed (paladins = OT <- GC), warriors got buffed too.

I love this class, i've been through hell (well, as much as you can be for a game) but right now things are not going much better than in TBC. Why? Because in TBC we could use the "they're still learning" as an excuse. In Wrath? Not so much.

I just don't trust a team of people who are in charge when they are either staffed with incompetent people or don't care. Best example - AW+DP nerf.

When they announced it boards were FLOODED with protection paladins rightfully complaining about how this is a bigger nerf for us than ret. You'd think that ONE person playing a prot paladin in Blizzard's team would catch this during the internal testing phase and say "umm...guys... you know this will hurt prot more than ret right?". But that didn't happen. Same thing for seal nerfs.

People like Knaughty can be blinded by faith all they want, but that doesn't change the facts. Either Blizzard's prot paladin testers fail or the dev team just doesn't care. There's no other explanation for what we're seeing at the moment.
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Postby Bobness » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:05 am

Katamai wrote: You'd think that ONE person playing a prot paladin in Blizzard's team would catch this during the internal testing phase and say "umm...guys... you know this will hurt prot more than ret right?". But that didn't happen. Same thing for seal nerfs


I'm completely on board with you for these, you can add Holy into that as well.
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Postby caboom » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:08 am

Katamai wrote:People like Knaughty can be blinded by faith all they want, but that doesn't change the facts. Either Blizzard's prot paladin testers fail or the dev team just doesn't care. There's no other explanation for what we're seeing at the moment.


I bet u my launch money that this is the case, it's a known fact that they are incompetent, they are also not willing to take advice, but at least *sometimes* they listen and take care of what they do.
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Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:17 am

baghead wrote:
Knaughty wrote:• We have mitigation that's the same as warriors, sometimes we're better, sometimes they're better. They scale better in gear that doesn't exist yet, and GC has said that they'll re-check once said gear is in (3.1, 3.2). Right now, @ 70 in Nerfwell, I take a lot less damage than our bears and warriors. I expect the gap will close a little between now and Naxx-25.

WWS please. I find this comment above proposterous but I'm willing to discuss numbers.

Every wws I've seen (and I've parsed a fair few ) of sunwell shows prot pallys taken significantly more damage than the other tanks (from 5-10%) average /hit.


http://wowwebstats.com/jspkjywhpmxam?s= ... a=x1f258b7

I take 4,396. Bear takes 4,710. Not that I was prioritising DPS moves over Holy Shield, (other than when Stomp is up) because the damage is trivial, so 6 unblocked hits get through. Average damage drops to 4,273 if you prioritise HS over nuking Brute.

Block Value is 18.2% mitigation. Again, if I was actually keeping HS up 100%, it would increase to 20.5% mitigation.

Warrior parse has expired, because they only last 15 days now - was similar, I took less damage.

I take less damage than warrior or bear in the hardest hitting fight that is available in-game on live, right now. Still find this comment preposterous now I've proved it?
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Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:21 am

Nothing specifically new on Brutallus however, since we already were taking less damage than warrior / bears due to the OPness of Holy Shield on fast hitters.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby baghead » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:26 am

Fridmarr wrote:I'd imagine you can find that gear on woltk.wowhead.com

I appreciate that frid, but I don't trust myself to math out how the gear stacks on top of talents/racials/base attributes and get it right.

Ok, please bear with me because this is awfully shoddy math, but I just did a couple of pen and paper comparisons between three class.

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... &n=Katamai (SWP pally)
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... &n=cheddar (SWP warrior)
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... th&n=jazko (BT warrior - 1 piece of SWP gear - the neck)

I'll tidy it up and post it later, but in short, even with a warrior with 800 BV (jazko) vs katamai's average BV of (1101) the damage mitigated per block for jazko was 996BV per hit (due to CB and SB spamming).

I did the same for cheddar and came out his 1024 BV is effectively an average mitigation per hit of 1164 BV.
(ie. due to CB+SB, warrior BV when SB spamming is effectively 15-20% higher than what is on their paperdoll)

Now you can point to their avoidance differences, but the warriors are gearing for far more expertise.

(Also note these are completely unbuffed numbers. BoK will give pallys a slightly higher AGI->DODGE advantage but meh, doubt it's worth modelling)

I guess my question here is: are we overselling HS a little here? We have to have 15-20% more BV than a warrior -and- 100% HS uptime just to compete with avg dmg/hit mitigated (and this is with a warrior still having 20% of hits not blocked at all!)

(Note, I also haven't factored in glyph of blocking in these calculations)

So yes, a warrior will be more spiky (non blocked hits) but overall damage is considerably less (roughly fitting in with the 5-10% I'm seeing on wws parses).
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Postby elfjorc » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:29 am

Well, this thread got derailed .....

I'm inclined to agree with "It's gonna be all right". While GC's comments about the single target taunt were like "WTF?", for most of the rest, they've shown awareness and said they're keeping an eye on it. Seeing what they've done to my old main, Shadow Priests, I'm pretty optimistic, Boomkins and Ele Shammies are looking good too, I just don't see why as long as they continue to keep communicating and are doing changes they won't end up somewhere acceptable. They'll have to address Holy and Prot DPS in the next few days before the expansion but there IS still time, even though it's passing.

but the warriors are gearing for far more expertise.


To be fair, there's a reason for that.
Last edited by elfjorc on Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:32 am

Lots of people like critical block, but what they forget is:

1) A paladin will avoid 50% of the hits, block the remaining ones for X damage.
2) A warrior will avoid 50% of the hits, block 13% of the hits for X, block 7% of the hits for X*2, get full damage from the remaining 30%.

Lots of people compare people in full Sunwell gear, where warriors are passively uncrushable, hence block everything that isn't avoided.

This is -not- the case for WotLK.


Note: i don't know how other warriors tank, but when i play my warrior, i save SB if for some reason i get a streak of unmitigated hits and fall low in HP, or if i want a burst of threat. I'm not spamming SB on every CD.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby baghead » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:36 am

Worldie wrote:Note: i don't know how other warriors tank, but when i play my warrior, i save SB if for some reason i get a streak of unmitigated hits and fall low in HP, or if i want a burst of threat. I'm not spamming SB on every CD.

But isn't this the whole debate worldie?

When SB is worth saving it blocks more damage overall saving it than spamming it. (ie. for burst damage encounters). When it's not worth saving, blocks more incoming damage overall on average than saving it.
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Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:40 am

caboom wrote:
Katamai wrote:People like Knaughty can be blinded by faith all they want, but that doesn't change the facts. Either Blizzard's prot paladin testers fail or the dev team just doesn't care. There's no other explanation for what we're seeing at the moment.


I bet u my launch money that this is the case, it's a known fact that they are incompetent, they are also not willing to take advice, but at least *sometimes* they listen and take care of what they do.


I bet my lunch money I take less damage that equivalently equipped warriors and bears... because I do, and I've read the WWS parses that prove it, and linked one.
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Postby elfjorc » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:42 am

baghead wrote:
Worldie wrote:Note: i don't know how other warriors tank, but when i play my warrior, i save SB if for some reason i get a streak of unmitigated hits and fall low in HP, or if i want a burst of threat. I'm not spamming SB on every CD.

But isn't this the whole debate worldie?

When SB is worth saving it blocks more damage overall saving it than spamming it. (ie. for burst damage encounters). When it's not worth saving, blocks more incoming damage overall on average than saving it.


The way I see it, it's always worth saving. Even if you don't have a predictable timer, using it randomly as soon as it cools down won't help you when you need help, which is when deaths happen. Even if it's not something like omg spikes, things like a healer throwing a battleres somewhere, healer dying and needing to be ressed in the normal course, healer needing an innervate are worth saving it for, the normal boss damage isn't sooo threatening that you'll want to use it the moment you can.
Last edited by elfjorc on Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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