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Now that AW causes forbearance again

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Dantriges » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:01 pm

We had our niche in TBC, aoe tanking, that got us into guilds even if it was only as a trash tankand some advantages, like crushing immunity that evened the playing field. The developers seem to never realized that, regarding GCs posts that we had a big advantage there. So I a really bothered by their lack of understanding how the paladin tank actually worked in TBC and what they´ve taken away removng crushing blows.

The second blow are all these nerfs to protection as collateral damage from something that looks a bit like clueless tinkering and nothing about how to adress our issues and in what timeline.

We don´t know how they want to fix the issues we have now, we don´t know when they will work on the protection tree and we don´t even know IF they will get rid of our problems introduced by the recent nerfs and bugs.

Let´s not talk about most of our other prenerf proposals that they should address. All we get are some vague answers, a glyph to RD that doesn´t even fix half the issues the spell has and a hint that our 11 pointer will be something that fixes retribution issues in pvp. As they said it wil be something that´s interesting for us, too. Considering Blizzard´s current behaviour, I am not sure, if they have a clue what is interesting for us or what would actually adress our problems, instead of it being a nice to have utility thing we don´t need.

Ok maintankadin seem to be currently whining a lot but well, as I see it, we are unsecure of our future and most feel a bit shaken. We saw Blizzard´s bold statements for WotLK and now we don´t know what´s going on.
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Postby Heracles » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:05 pm

I've got to say I agree with the forum becoming a whine fest, sure I've only just started posting here but I've been reading for a very long time indeed.

When I first came to this site and I was still levelling, a guild officer had asked me:

"What are you going to do at 70? Go Holy?"

I told him:

"No, I levelled as Prot, I enjoy Prot so Prot I'll stay."

Cue "Rofl! You'll never tank Prince/NB/Gruul or anything above that." Over vent.

I stuck to my guns because I truly enjoy the class and was inspired by what I had read here, about what was possible, against all the odds.

One month after I dinged 70 I tanked that guild's 1st Prince kill, over time I became the guild's MT and as we tried to break into 25 mans I even taught Warriors and Druids in that guild how to tank/gear up, it got to the stage where they couldn't* do a KZ group without me.

After three months of trying to get 25 mans going it wasn't meant to be for me in that guild, I wanted to prove myself on a bigger stage and app'ed around guilds on my server.

I landed a "bench spot" in one of our realms top guilds, I showed I'm a top raider first, a Paladin second and that's lead to me being one of the first invites every night if I'm not working, hell I even tanked our first Illidan kill. I also get lots of /w telling me I'm pro from guildies and randoms I've never even heard of on the server, really makes me :D tbh.

A long winded history I know but my achievements in tBC was inspired by this place and it's never say die attitude. It helped me attain that same outlook through some tough times when I thought "Why the f*** am I bothering?" and it's one I keep with me today as we stare down the barrel of WotLK.

Yes we've lost our avantages, yes what with the nerfs we're getting the shitty end of a shitty stick at the moment but I'll be damned if I'm going to let these bastards grind me down. I've got to where I am because I've learnt from the great guys and girls here, it seems a shame to see these boards so subdued.

I've poured blood, sweat and tears into my Paladin and earned where I am today, I know a lot of you have too, so let's show that Maintankadin spirit and show the World of Warcraft that Blizzard can rob Peter to pay Paul with these improvements/nerfs, but god dammit we still own!

* EDIT: I put they could do KZ without me, could they f***! :lol:
Last edited by Heracles on Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Dantriges » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:19 pm

Heracles wrote:One month after I dinged 70 I tanked that guild's 1st Prince kill, over time I became the guild's MT and as we tried to break into 25 mans I even taught Warriors and Druids in that guild how to tank/gear up, it got to the stage where they could do a KZ group without me.


That reminds me of a conversation I had with another warrior when we talked about tanking the Flames of Azzinoth. He asked me why I do calc parry/dodge/miss together, aren´t these three separte chances. It really let my jaw drop. Good thatwe got rid of him.

I've poured blood, sweat and tears into my Paladin and earned where I am today, I know a lot of you have too, so let's show that Maintankadin spirit and show the World of Warcraft that Blizzard can rob Peter to pay Paul with these improvements/nerfs, but god dammit we still own!


I think most of the people here fought tooth and nail for the spot they are today, I certainly did. But I am just tired of fighting an uphill battle after doing it for so long. I hope I don´t have to in Wrath, as I am not sure I still have the spirit for it.
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Postby Heracles » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:30 pm

Dantriges wrote:I am just tired of fighting an uphill battle after doing it for so long. I hope I don´t have to in Wrath, as I am not sure I still have the spirit for it.


Keep the faith, like life, tis only a game. :)
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Postby Sevrinax » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:42 pm

thread derail hits you for 50k :p

I'm not in a cutting edge guild doing cutting edge stuff - I'm merely a humble pally, tanking my way through the game in a casual guild.

I can MT if we need it, I can o/t, I'll help with healing as prot, whatever I'm needed to do.

I'll leave it to others to do the maths and put forward the theories on why x is better than y - sometimes I agree, sometimes I won't. Nobody really needs to know MY angle on stuff, so hey, it's all good :)

But I'd really like to be fixed and finished, if it's at all possible one day? I know mmo's are in constant flux and development - but is it too much to ask for someone blue to post saying "Prot pallies are right where we want them to be as of today" ?
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Postby knaughty » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:48 pm

It's just not super complicated. Ignore DPS/TPS for a moment, because:

(1) FFS, they've said they'll fix it.
(2) IT's dead easy to fix. Dial a couple of knobs on sword & board damage, BAM! more TPS/DPS.

If you don't understand why they're tuning ret DPS before they tune prot/holy DPS.... L2Think. What's primary?

• Holy: Healing
• Prot: Mitigation
• Ret: DPS.

We need DPS to do threat, Holy need it to level/quest - but you tune the pure DPS tree first, because that's the primary DPS tree (Duh!). Seriously, would you nerf or buff Holy Light based on Sheath being OP, or tune Sheath? You tune Sheath. Of course the damn seals and judgments get tuned for ret first - they're the primary user :roll:

So... ignoring DPS/TPS (where even GC says Holy/Prot are too low, and they'll buff them after ret is done...)

GC: How's your Mitigation and Tanking Toolkit, prot-pallies?

Why, thank you for asking GC, IT'S FUCKING AWESOME!

• We have mitigation that's the same as warriors, sometimes we're better, sometimes they're better. They scale better in gear that doesn't exist yet, and GC has said that they'll re-check once said gear is in (3.1, 3.2). Right now, @ 70 in Nerfwell, I take a lot less damage than our bears and warriors. I expect the gap will close a little between now and Naxx-25.

• Our toolkit is also very damn nice. We could use an 11-pt talent on a 30-60 sec CD that was a reactive ability, and they've said well get one, maybe post-release, but it's coming. Even without, we've had massive boosts. Hammer, Bubblewall, etc, etc.

I was already a MT, despite being the "worst" tanking class. We've been buffed to be even with warriors in every aspect other than DPS/TPS where we have buffs coming. At the start of Beta we were GODLY, now we're merely good - even - competitive - pick a word.

Any tankadin who tanked deep content in 2.4 with our shitty toolkit is going to be a seriously fucking kick-ass tank at 80.

Knaughty takes a few deep, calming breaths

Sevrinax wrote:But I'd really like to be fixed and finished, if it's at all possible one day? I know mmo's are in constant flux and development - but is it too much to ask for someone blue to post saying "Prot pallies are right where we want them to be as of today" ?


It's possible one day, but they're not there yet.

Right now, GC is saying:
• We need a cool 11-pt talent that prot loves and ret wants too.
• Prot (and holy) need a (big?) DPS boost.
• Mitigation is spot on in Tier-7 content, but might need a buff for Tier-8.
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Postby Macha » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:58 pm

Knaughty wrote:At the start of Beta we were GODLY


At the start of the beta we were significantly worse than 2.4 due to the absence of crushing blows. That is a far cry from being godly. It took until two weeks ago until our mitigation was actually touched.

And mitigation being equal? Only in fancy graphs. Getting the same damage overtime does not actually make us equal when we're actually taking more damage where it matters ;) That's really the thing though, a lot of people cannot see that because they focus on graphs of the complete run. These are essentially meaningless. You life or die based on very few hits, not the whole.

Yeah, sure, I tank better than most of my co-tanks on my Paladin.
The problem? I tank better than my Paladin on my worse-geared warrior. People need to stop confusing their own ability with what the class itself brings at the end of the day. Chances are that when you are the MT already, you already were the best player for the choice. You'd be better than the rest regardless what class you chose.

The whining about whining is really getting out of hand and rather "retarded" to quote some members, now there's even severe ignoring of reality and glorifying the start of the beta o.O "godly" at the start of beta is just cute.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:00 pm

Sevrinax wrote:thread derail hits you for 50k :p

I'm not in a cutting edge guild doing cutting edge stuff - I'm merely a humble pally, tanking my way through the game in a casual guild.

I can MT if we need it, I can o/t, I'll help with healing as prot, whatever I'm needed to do.

I'll leave it to others to do the maths and put forward the theories on why x is better than y - sometimes I agree, sometimes I won't. Nobody really needs to know MY angle on stuff, so hey, it's all good :)

But I'd really like to be fixed and finished, if it's at all possible one day? I know mmo's are in constant flux and development - but is it too much to ask for someone blue to post saying "Prot pallies are right where we want them to be as of today" ?


I hope we dont see a post like that soon.

Frankly the nerf to AW hurt. One of our pluses before was being able to go in and generate huge threat to start because of avenging wrath....now, if we use it our shieldwall is not available.

I know i have said it before, but i will say it again. We purely suck against casters.

If you dont believe it, go on, as a tankadin, duel a mage...hell duel a pve mage...you will lose...

Try a priest...try a resto druid...try a balance druid...get the picture

In fact, most of them will let you make the first move, and you will still lose.

Now, a warrior dueling any of those would at least have a chance when they are prot specced

I like our increased dps...I dont like that warriors and druids got theirs increased more.

I like our increased mitigation...its close...but bottom line a bit lower.

I like our new 51 pointer, its great. Still the only ability we got not affected by silence and its weakness is being disarmed...I think SotR should also work while silenced.

Yes, blizzard has come a long way fixing paladins...but the last few nerfs hurt. They hurt quite a bit and when we were already only borderline viable, when compared to the other tanks, those nerfs may be enough to push us below the viability level.

Some of you seem fine with the uphill fight. Walk to school uphill both ways and all that...

Dont you feel it may be time for some of the other tanks to have to do that for a change?

Why should it always be paladin tanks fighting the good fight?
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Postby Heracles » Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:04 pm

Sevrinax wrote:I can MT if we need it, I can o/t, I'll help with healing as prot, whatever I'm needed to do.


^ This is what will get you your raid slot in any guild that's worth playing in imo, "cutting edge" or not.

But I'd really like to be fixed and finished, if it's at all possible one day? I know mmo's are in constant flux and development - but is it too much to ask for someone blue to post saying "Prot pallies are right where we want them to be as of today" ?


I'd love to be finished too, I'd also love to be up there on a level par with other tanks mitigation/threat/hp as they've promised, a single target taunt would also be win but one can only assume that they haven't finished and probably never will.

The way I see it is we either hope they'll sort us out in a patch or two, not ideal but realistically the best we can hope for, carrying on doing great things with an unloved class, re-roll or quit playing... I know which one I'm going to do.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:05 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:<QQ about losing duels>


Right... so you're down to complaining about losing 1v1 while specced PvE Prot.

/golfclap
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Postby knaughty » Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:20 pm

Macha wrote:
Knaughty wrote:At the start of Beta we were GODLY


"godly" at the start of beta is just cute.

Warriors got nothing much other than the Shield-block change, which they read as a nerf.

We got pretty much everything up front.

We had all out Wrath talents and abilities, warriors had level 70 shit. We kicked their arse.
Macha wrote:And mitigation being equal? Only in fancy graphs. Getting the same damage overtime does not actually make us equal when we're actually taking more damage where it matters That's really the thing though, a lot of people cannot see that because they focus on graphs of the complete run. These are essentially meaningless. You life or die based on very few hits, not the whole.

Which is what makes Holy Shield so much better than shield block for any boss that doesn't have a repeated mini-enrage. IE: Most of them. We can Bubblewall the far more frequent "end-only" enrage.

Shield Block is better for 2/6 bosses in Sunwell. Holy Shield is better for the other 4. Sounds like flavour to me.

Four-figure, always up Block Value is godly in real raids. Especially combined with Ardent Defender.

"Fancy graphs" say mitigation is equal. Blizzard devs say their entire collated data pool of raiding parses says mitigation is equal. Macha says it isn't.... pick a source you like.
Macha wrote:Yeah, sure, I tank better than most of my co-tanks on my Paladin.
The problem? I tank better than my Paladin on my worse-geared warrior.

Then please re-roll warrior and troll www.protwarrior.com

WTB PHPBB 3.0 so I can ignore some people
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Postby baghead » Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:43 pm

Knaughty wrote:• We have mitigation that's the same as warriors, sometimes we're better, sometimes they're better. They scale better in gear that doesn't exist yet, and GC has said that they'll re-check once said gear is in (3.1, 3.2). Right now, @ 70 in Nerfwell, I take a lot less damage than our bears and warriors. I expect the gap will close a little between now and Naxx-25.

WWS please. I find this comment above proposterous but I'm willing to discuss numbers.

Every wws I've seen (and I've parsed a fair few ) of sunwell shows prot pallys taken significantly more damage than the other tanks (from 5-10%) average /hit.
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Postby baghead » Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:51 pm

Knaughty wrote:
baghead wrote:<Gratuitous personal attacks and whining QQ>

I agree with Sharow. This board has turned into a retarded whine-fest, and you're one of the worst offenders.

There was no gratuitous personal attack at all. In fact, you're hypocrisy is staggering. You also seem to enjoy quoting what suits you.

Yes, my T6 geared paladin has been parked as I want a slot in a progression based guild as a tank in wrath.
Yes, I would far prefer to return to my prot pally if it was not broken.
Yes, I visit these forums to continue to argue for buffs for my preferred class and keep myself current on developments.
Yes, I will continue to highlight the class problems so that these forums (which blizz visit) present a consolidated view of prot paladin issues.
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Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:40 am

Lots of people tend to love the shield block "mini shield wall", but they probably have no idea of how horrible having a 30% chance to get a unblocked hit is.
Play a warrior, try it by yourself ;)


Paladins work quite fine for progression MT in wrath, even in their current (nerfed) form. Many people don't realize it, still.
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Postby Katamai » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:01 am

Knaughty wrote:<amazing bunch of self-deceit and Blizzard fanboy dribble>


Yeh, it's all peachy. All hail GC, the guy who calls us collateral dmg after nerfing us due to the way he and his team balance ret.

Get a grip and stop being a blind Blizzard zealot who believes everything they say. GC said this, GC said that... well guess what? GC says a lot of things and then changes stories.

Need i remind you of his "surgical" comments just before he nerfed the whole damn class in order to nerf ret? Grow up... you're just as bad as us "QQers" with your googly eyes and Blizzard worship.
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