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Now that AW causes forbearance again

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby Worldie » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:09 pm

As said, noone is saying we can't Main Tank (even if the simple concept of a main tank disgusts me atm) in WotLK.

We even got a strong point in wotlk with our predictable damage income.




Again, what sucks is the Blizzard acts toward us. And if they keep nerfing us like that, you will have to work quite hard to explain to your raid leader why having you tanking, when you take more damage than the war / druid / dk, you have less panic buttons, and your threat is 20-30% less than the other tanks.
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Postby Katamai » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:12 pm

Noobgetier wrote:I doubt that you realy think we are not able to compete, granted we wont be the TOPtanks, but good tanks don't grow on trees either.


I don't think you understand you're undermining yourself here. We CAN'T be top tanks if our warrior counterpart is equal. THAT is the problem. You can be equal players but mechanics and Blizzard's "balance" will make sure you're a 2nd class citizen.

I know for future tanks it will be still hard, but we managed to get our Tankspot in tbc, when everyone was telling us " Palydans cannot tank!111", still where are we now ? We tanked, we hold aggro, we survived, raids got cancled because 1 of the TANKs wasn't there.

We got our spot in TBC manly thanks to our AoE tanking superiority and crushing immunity window. Both were taken away.

And no good guild has only 1 set of tanks. Saying how we got accepted when warriors couldn't be assed to tank is just dumb.

We earned our spot in the community and in raids.

AoE Tanking. Crushing immunity. Gone.
Now the players know Paladins are on the letter, and I seriously doubt they will shove us away just because of a few lil' diffrences.
My group won't. And I was tanking endgame content 7months ago.( BT / SWP)

You tanked SWP 7 months ago? You must have looted a time machine then.
As far as i know, no progression guild had a paladin tank in BT. Hell, i remember that Nihilum tard blabbing to online/wow mags how "taking a prot paladin is nerfing your raid progress".

Yes it's biased that we suffer , I am not blind, but overall we got a damn nice overhaul. That was what I wanted to get through.


Overhaul is worthless if it didn't fix the core problem. And it hasn't. It fixed a nook here, filled a cranny there, took a couple bits from here, glues them there, but in essence things haven't changed much.
We lost our niche, gained some MT utilities, yet when faced with an equally skilled/geared warrior, we don't stand a chance.

EDIT: Noobgetier, don't get me wrong, i've got nothing personal against you. I am just frustrated by how this situation is developing and people's lack of understanding when it comes to where real issues really are. I know perfect balance will never be achieved among any type of functions in WoW. But just like Holy paladins were best tank healers and we were AoE tanks, we had something to be best at. With latest changes we lost that and while Holy paladins still have a fighting chance to top those healing meters, our chances are now close to zero of having an area where we can say "look, i'm the best tank here and this is why". While i know Blizzard doesn't want that, they've still made warriors superior to us in almost every way except one (predictable dmg input). Yet with all these nerfs, it has dramatically lost its value.
Last edited by Katamai on Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Noobgetier » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:19 pm

Worldie wrote:As said, noone is saying we can't Main Tank (even if the simple concept of a main tank disgusts me atm) in WotLK.

We even got a strong point in wotlk with our predictable damage income.




Again, what sucks is the Blizzard acts toward us. And if they keep nerfing us like that, you will have to work quite hard to explain to your raid leader why having you tanking, when you take more damage than the war / druid / dk, you have less panic buttons, and your threat is 20-30% less than the other tanks.


So nothing changed ? Good at least I can handle that, since I know that trade allready.
A bigger problem would be to explain why you fucked up as War/Dru/Dk. As Paladin I have an excuse at least :D
Actually I wasn't writing here here for years, but the normal WoW forums are just unbearable anymore, and now it starts here aswell ?
The forum that was only for "Maintankadins"!
After 7 months brake I come back and WOAAAH whine in the tankforum (this one here), and even greybeards involved.
It's sad, since we had by far greater odds against us in TBC.
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Postby Kracus » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:23 pm

Another fine example of blizzard just not trying to even use an once of brain power.

how about AW puts shields on a 30sec cooldown and not make me 2nd guess using a AW to build threat fast or save it for my bubble wall.

and I didn't see that about AW and Divine Guardian, GG blizz.
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Postby crabcrouton » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:28 pm

I think the changes being made in a hotfix is both the most insulting and crippling part.

Because they're hofixes, the changes have to be small tweakable code fixes. Intelligent approaches to making DP + AW still viable for Prot is left in the wayside for quick easy fixes. It's both insulting as a paying customer and as a loyal fan that their dev team can be so haphazard with the class.
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Postby Noobgetier » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:30 pm

Katamai wrote:You tanked SWP 7 months ago? You must have looted a time machine then.
As far as i know, no progression guild had a paladin tank in BT. Hell, i remember that Nihilum tard blabbing to online/wow mags how "taking a prot paladin is nerfing your raid progress".


We have november friend ..... please check when SWP got intodruced (Patch2.4). Thanks for your rant. You just want to quote every line I write and try to prove me wrong ? Sorry, wrong Paladin mate.

I was there,and I tanked. You too ?

Edit: Some Raids had BT on farm pre 2.4, just for the records, and yes even with paladins as a Tank.
Edit2: There where plenty of paladin tanks in progression raids, just because you don't know of them doesn't make your statement right.
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Postby Katamai » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:37 pm

Noobgetier wrote:We have november friend ..... please check when SWP got intodruced (Patch2.4). Thanks for your rant. You just want to quote every line I write and try to prove me wrong ? Sorry, wrong Paladin mate.

I was there,and I tanked. You too ?


As i said, i've got nothing personal against you but i just think you're ignoring reality. In TBC we had a niche even though we were more or less inferior (depending on skills, gear and situation).

We are still (somewhat less) inferior yet we lost our niche. That is the crux of this problem and the reason why people are frustrated. That is the latest round of "ret" nerfs that hit us almost as bad as them.

(Oh and i honestly thought it's been less since 2.4... seems like it was yesterday when we killed Kalec :? )

EDIT: A lot of guilds with paladin tanks had BT on farm pre-TBC. We lost a lot of people because of farming boredome just before SWP landed. But i can't think of a single guild with a world first to have a paladin tank in their standard setup. I think all of the top 5 guilds in BT/MH did it without a paladin tank. We only gained acceptance later as content was put on farm and RLs felt more comfortable experimenting and realized while we are behind, we're not as behind as their thought. Only with SWP we saw paladin tanks on world firsts.

While some of us will be better off going into wrath than we were in TBC, it's out reputation that will help us secure spots, not because we're a better class in the raid. Still working harder just to be equally regarded (but still not equal) is annoying to say the least.
Last edited by Katamai on Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Noobgetier » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:41 pm

Katamai wrote:As i said, i've got nothing personal against you but i just think you're ignoring reality. In TBC we had a niche even though we were more or less inferior (depending on skills, gear and situation).

We are still (somewhat less) inferior yet we lost our niche. That is the crux of this problem and the reason why people are frustrated. That is the latest round of "ret" nerfs that hit us almost as bad as them.

(Oh and i honestly thought it's been less since 2.4... seems like it was yesterday when we killed Kalec :? )


I don't ignore facts, I said allready that I am completly aware of the issues, but that doesn't change the fact that good tanks don't grow on trees and raids have their tanks sorted, and that there will be again some good paladins which will prove themself worthy for the job, to get it done.

The frustration is understandable, but we can tank , we can tank good and we will get the job done.
That's the rolling weel, aslong it isn't acube it will keep rolling!

edit:
Katamai wrote:While some of us will be better off going into wrath than we were in TBC, it's out reputation that will help us secure spots, not because we're a better class in the raid. Still working harder just to be equally regarded (but still not equal) is annoying to say the least.

So there IS a Protection-Paladin in you ! Good, seems you understand verry well then ? It is damn nice to PROVE that we are able to get things sorted out, even with all those odds.

The odds became smaller! Which brings me right back to my first post, thanks for reading;)
Last edited by Noobgetier on Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Katamai » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:44 pm

Noobgetier wrote:I don't ignore facts, I said allready that I am completly aware of the issues, but that doesn't change the fact that good tanks don't grow on trees and raids have their tanks sorted, and that there will be again some good paladins which will prove themself worthy for the job, to get it done.

The frustration is understandable, but we can tank , we can tank good and we will get the job done.
That's the rolling weel, aslong it isn't acube it will keep rolling!


Right now we're more of a hexagon to warrior's wheel ;)
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Postby baghead » Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:16 pm

It's awesome to see some reality encroaching back into these forums. I gave up trying to make my point, but big /cheer to katamai.

It's not about being negative, it's about being accurate. Accuracy allows us to point out what's broken with the hope they may fix it. Pretending problems don't exist wont get anything fixed.

I switched mains 4 weeks ago, but would switch back in a second if they fixed prot pallys.
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Postby Angella » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:00 pm

baghead wrote:I switched mains 4 weeks ago, but would switch back in a second if they fixed prot pallys.


I think this is what's going to happen to any paladin who wants to keep playing WoW.

><

Negative I know, but I can't help it with the string of nerfs. I feel like I've been kicked when I'm down. Repeatedly.
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Postby Sharow » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:03 pm

These forums are becoming one big whine-fest.

Pally tanking in TBC was not for the faint of heart. You had to work twice as hard as the warriors to prove yourself worthy of a MT spot but still there were those who fought to attain this. And many succeeded.

Now we are getting buffs to bring us closer to Warriors and the developers are making all the right noises about levelling the playing field. So you would think we'd be rejoicing right? No, we whine, whine and whine some more.

We are not broken, we are in a better state now than we have ever been (and I've been tanking on and off since Seal of Fury was the best single target aggro skill in the game and noone had MC gear, and full time since the TBC launch). If you feel that playing another class would be easier then by all means go reroll but please keep the endless whining to the official forums where it belongs.
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Postby baghead » Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:17 pm

You're part of the problem sharow not the solution. You seem to revel in your mediocrity. Prot pallys were awful before 2.2? itemisation changes. And they were still borderline viable before 2.3 landed.

Now, you may have a guild that just brought you for the hell of it. Big /gratz to you. However some of us want to be an asset to a raid, not a liability.

This site is MainTankadin, not NovelyOffAfkTankadin. Lets keep our focus on what issues are there for prot pallys being competitive MainTanks. let's not suggest that our limitations are strengths.

Remember, if thunderclap and swipe had been true AoE in BC there would have been a LOT less prot pallys. It was MH, tidewalker, hydross, solarian, etc that encouraged guilds to gear up prot pallys.

(Worldie, I know you hate the 'MT' concept but you see what I'm getting at)
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Postby knaughty » Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:11 pm

baghead wrote:<Gratuitous personal attacks and whining QQ>

I agree with Sharow. This board has turned into a retarded whine-fest, and you're one of the worst offenders.
baghead wrote:I switched mains 4 weeks ago

Go troll that class's board then.

You've already decided prot pallies suck, re-rolled, and are playing something else. Go away.
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Postby mavfin » Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:52 pm

Sharow wrote:These forums are becoming one big whine-fest.


Agreed. I think all of you that have nothing better to do need to go reroll, and go troll some other class board. Leave this one for people who want to tank, not whine.

Pally tanks that I play with aren't the least bit worried about losing their spot or not getting to tank. My pally tank friends say they're doing much better than they were in BC, even.

Oh, and this line really gave me insight into what some people here REALLY want...

Katamai wrote:We CAN'T be top tanks if our warrior counterpart is equal. THAT is the problem.


Ah. You want your old superiority back, where druids and warriors were kicked from groups so you could tank it. You don't want equality, you want to be superior in every way. If that's what you want, then yes, you do need to reroll, and good riddance.
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