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Now that AW causes forbearance again

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Postby Io.Draco » Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:12 am

Uhm I think Tigole and Foror have a say in that ....while although I honestly doubt they have anything to say with the design of palas in beta and ptr's once they come out on live and people go whine insane mode , I bet they are the first ones to go say , nerf it to the ground!

There have been alot of classes wich where OP at some point due to bad design in beta/ptr and went so live but they where NOT nerfed so badly so fast , its too of a BIG coincedence
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Postby Morganim » Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:21 am

Katamai wrote:Do for AW+Bubble same thing like they did for trinkets.

Activating one puts a cd with the same duration as the buff, on the other one. Can't bubble+AW at the same time. No forbearance, no shit.

But i guess that's too complicated for Blizztard developers.
\

what and be like recklessness and shield wall

no wai.........
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Postby Katamai » Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:27 am

Morganim wrote:what and be like recklessness and shield wall

no wai.........


You're right! They don't want to make classes too similar... what was i thinkin!?
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:53 am

lusisia wrote:One thing they said was that they needed to get these changes into the hands of the most possible players as soon as possible so they can determine the impact. The beta servers are largely dead at this point so you won't get too much testing done there.

It does feel like they want the ret problem to be solved by launch but it also feels like that's very unlikely and that all three trees will go into xpac underperforming until they can fix it.

The problem is they won't have time to just focus on ret and paladin issues once things go live because they'll have to balance it around all the other issues going on.


You know that point you raise about beta has been bothering me in all these nerfs. I don't think at level 80, all of this is nearly the problem that it is right now, and I don't think they are getting any type of reasonable data from beta. In fact, I think when we see the end of season one results, that ret pallys are going to be anything but dominant, but then there will be no hot fixes or likely fixes of any kind to address their mistakes.
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Postby Sabindeus » Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:11 pm

Well I made a thread. It's pretty short and to the point, maybe GC will look at it.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 3465&sid=1
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Postby daemonym » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:29 pm

a fix eh? kinda the same as how you take a pet to the vet's office to get fixed too?
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Postby Noobgetier » Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:31 pm

We are concerned that Holy and Protection may have lost too much dps as "collateral damage" from the Ret nerfs. It is something we're working on now, though I do believe Holy dps is still a lot better than it was in BC

They know it and they have 10 days left on their scheduler.

I am pretty optimistic about that.

I mean, the buffs protection got are gorgeous compared to TBC.

12% flat mitigation

Blockvalue increased

Stamina spelldmgscaling and 51pt talent -> Hello tankingweapon !

Strength scales with all important spells now ( threat),plus: hello blockvalue and hello imp.Str tier 1!

Taunt on 8 secs

Hand of salvation -I love this spell
Hand of sacrifice -OTanking possible + MT saveguard
Hand of Protection -> YAY no need to rebuff blessings

ALL Protection abilities are instant !+ HoW + AvShield

ShoR: causing Holy damage equal to your block value plus 400. This spell causes a high amount of threat.
I suspect a BV of minimum 1300-1400 in Wotlk + 400flat = 2000holydmg = 3800 threat ( not effected by bossarmor) every 6secs!= 633,3~ tps Thats alot!

The new imp.devotion aura

the new BoSanc manaregen (mentioned the mitigation allready befor)

SoV finaly a working seal for tanking !

50% shieldwall -
-------------------------------------------------------------------
negativ
We lost ( since TBC) Ave.Wrath
Still manaburned ( devs looking into it :) )
Silenced
feared
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

So ? Damn we got a huge BUFF! Everyone who tanked endgame in TBC (or even classic) will know how to Maintank a Raid in Wrath of the Lich King!

So what'ya'doin' ? Whining or tanking ?

I know it, I will TANK as Maintankadin(Tm).
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Postby Katamai » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:14 pm

This is filled with so much nonsense that i just can't resist...

Noobgetier wrote:We are concerned that Holy and Protection may have lost too much dps as "collateral damage" from the Ret nerfs. It is something we're working on now, though I do believe Holy dps is still a lot better than it was in BC

They know it and they have 10 days left on their scheduler.

I am pretty optimistic about that.

Yes! I'm very optimistic that protection will AGAIN be forced to comply with ret balancing. I have a novel idea... how about making a protection talent a PROTECTION talent instead of putting it there for ret for starters? Yet they're talking about our 11 pointer in ret context.

I mean, the buffs protection got are gorgeous compared to TBC.

You mean those that brought us where warriors were in TBC?

12% flat mitigation

We got 12% mitigation buffs? Since when?
6% from Imp RF, 3% from ShtT... where did you find 12? Are you accounting for BoSanct?

Yeh... then we get 12 and warriors get 13%... not much but still ahead!

Blockvalue increased

And warrior's didn't?
BV stayed the same, they changed the mechanics.

Stamina spelldmgscaling and 51pt talent -> Hello tankingweapon !

Fix for broken itemization ≠ buff

Strength scales with all important spells now ( threat),plus: hello blockvalue and hello imp.Str tier 1!

Strength doesn't technically scale, it's AP. And it's part of their change to game itemization, not because they buffed us.

Taunt on 8 secs

Still 3 targets, still only one taunt with no backup. OH YAAY!

Hand of salvation -I love this spell

Err... you're a tank... it doesn't matter to you unless you or your DPS fails. Warriors get Vigilance which beats it hands down.
Hand of sacrifice -OTanking possible + MT saveguard

HoSac is a MT safeguard? Riiiiight...
Hand of Protection -> YAY no need to rebuff blessings

LOLWUT?

ALL Protection abilities are instant !+ HoW + AvShield

Except HoW has been nerfed and AS is bugged so it jumps 5 times longer than it should or used to. Yaay for pulling unmarked packs!

ShoR: causing Holy damage equal to your block value plus 400. This spell causes a high amount of threat.
I suspect a BV of minimum 1300-1400 in Wotlk + 400flat = 2000holydmg = 3800 threat ( not effected by bossarmor) every 6secs!= 633,3~ tps Thats alot!

Hey, my name is Shield Slam and i'm a warrior baseline ability. Besides interrupting spells on low CD i also dispell one buff on my target. Nice to meet you! Yes i am mitigated but armor, but guess what? I have higher base values!
It's very nice to meet you :D

The new imp.devotion aura

Doesn't stack with a tree druid. Nice for 5 mans, pointless in raids.

the new BoSanc manaregen (mentioned the mitigation allready befor)

And it regens less mana for us than what warriors/druids/DKs get in terms of effective value.

SoV finaly a working seal for tanking !

Hahaha... yeh, it's great... it doesn't fall off now but does 50% less dmg than it used to. Awesome!

50% shieldwall -

Which relies on AD to reach SW's effectiveness. And if you use AW you're fucked... cool!
-------------------------------------------------------------------
negativ
We lost ( since TBC) Ave.Wrath

We didn't lose it. It was made useless yesterday.
Still manaburned ( devs looking into it :) )

Yeh... they've been "looking into it" since patch 2.0. You know... they said it just before adding mana burning bosses and mobs in TK/BT
Silenced
feared
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

They say they're not going to cast fear on tanks but we're still screwed by silence. Awesome!
So ? Damn we got a huge BUFF! Everyone who tanked endgame in TBC (or even classic) will know how to Maintank a Raid in Wrath of the Lich King!

No, we got brought to where warriors were in TBC. Guess what? They buffed warriors too!

So what'ya'doin' ? Whining or tanking ?

I know it, I will TANK as Maintankadin(Tm).

Rerolling... good luck being a 2nd grade tank ;)

Sigh... had to get that of my chest -.-
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Postby Noobgetier » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:44 pm

And there lies your problem.

We talk about maintanking here right? It was doable in TBC, and for me the job gets easier or in other words "more possible".

I play that game long enough , I take what I get into my hands and do what is doable with it. Maintanking was doable, now it gets easier, end of it.

I can play with that.
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Postby Worldie » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:45 pm

Hey, my name is Shield Slam and i'm a warrior baseline ability. Besides interrupting spells on low CD i also dispell one buff on my target. Nice to meet you! Yes i am mitigated but armor, but guess what? I have higher base values!
It's very nice to meet you :D

This is incorrect, Shield Slam damages and dispels, Shield Bash interrupts (and is off GCD, also).
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Postby Worldie » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:47 pm

Noobgetier wrote:And there lies your problem.

We talk about maintanking here right? It was doable in TBC, and for me the job gets easier or in other words "more possible".

I play that game long enough , I take what I get into my hands and do what is doable with it. Maintanking was doable, now it gets easier, end of it.

I can play with that.

Again, noone said we can't main tank in wotlk. We can, and we do it quite fine.

As most have stated already, it's not that 1% more damage that makes us suffer, it's the stupid acting of blizzard recently which keeps nerfing retribution, and backfiring on holy and prot, without realizing the damage they are doing to those 2 specs.
And getting out with a "oh, maybe we are breaking you, maybe in the future we should have to fix you".
Too bad that by then, the general ignorance combined with the weaknesses of prot paladins will have killed the future of a lot of prot paladins which, without this nonsenses, would have been able to compete.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:53 pm

Noobgetier wrote:So ? Damn we got a huge BUFF! Everyone who tanked endgame in TBC (or even classic) will know how to Maintank a Raid in Wrath of the Lich King!

So what'ya'doin' ? Whining or tanking ?

Like I'd imagine many people here, my tanking carrier took off at 2.3. The low health problems that plagued the role (due to both low base health and having to gather 102.4) were alleviated and we became more generally accepted within raids.

We were a niche tank, developed to make certain specific fights easier, but never expected to be competative main tanks. Despite this, despite problems at every level of the raid game many of us were main tanks. Many of us worked that extra bit harder, did that little bit more. Trusted by those around us we filled a position we were only half designed to fulfill.

I'm proud to have done that. Proud to have poured over theory and gear selection, to push everything I could from a spec that at the beginning of TBC wasn't viable. It was a challenge and one I'm happy to have met and overcome.

But I've done that. I've been there. Been the guy who apologises to the healers that I'll take some extra damage here. Been the guy who explains how my spells and skills work to the rest of the raid. Been the guy who fights for the position despite the issues.

They said, explicitly that if the tanks were not interchangable in WotLK, that they would have failed in design. I think a lot of us sighed relief to hear that, and now I think a lot of us are pretty upset that they've essentially conceded to that failure.

At the risk of sounding "official forum", I've spent a lot of time this week looking at my warrior, something I hadn't even considered before, because quite simply, I'm not seeing the point in playing a class that underperforms, simply because blizz wasn't really paying attention.
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Postby Katamai » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:56 pm

Worldie wrote:This is incorrect, Shield Slam damages and dispels, Shield Bash interrupts (and is off GCD, also).


Don't even know why i put in "interrupts", you're right, SS dispells, doesn't interrupt.

But still, i think my point is valid.

And i agree with your post above. We will be able to do it, but in terms of "equality" among classes, they're not there.

I thought we were heading in a great direction after SotT buff but then the retribution-turn-prot/holy-nerf debacle happened and that broke the camel's back so to speak.

This whole "we keep nerfing you and we might fix it some day in the future" talk is insulting to the point where it's got me sick of playing a paladin. I've plowed through growing pains as a tank in 2.0, i've plowed through unnerfed KZ, being rotated on fights like NB due to shitty mechanics, i've pushed before and after we got our HP fixed and our best traits shown in MH, but i think i'm giving up now. I've spent nights reading theorycraft, grinding every place i could for an item that brings me 0.1% closer to my goal of proving people i was as good as warriors. I've spent countless hours grinding so i can get the best items available and xrealmed in pursuit of a guild that would acknowledge me as a good tank leaving my RL friends behind. I've ended up on EU's most progressed server in the 3rd best guild there. I've been recognized as one of the best paladin tanks on the server so i've reached my goals, right?

Wrong. My GM and MT still puts me to shame in times due how Blizzard is designing this game and there's nothing i can do about it. No matter how hard i grind, how much gold i spend, how great gear i get, i can't do anything if one day i wake up and see i've been labeled as "collateral dmg" again and thrown in the gutter.

It's not that we're worse tanks than we were, it's that they're treating this spec with such disrespect and such... apathy. They just can't be that clueless to not know what their ret "balancing" is doing to prot/holy and their responses are in my eyes nothing but crowd pleasing crap. "I might help you get up now that i punched you in the face" just isn't good enough anymore. If you're serious, do it now!

Especially once you play a warrior and see what they made them. They could do it for us too but for some reason (they don't hate us right?), they're not doing it.
Last edited by Katamai on Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Noobgetier » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Worldie wrote:Again, noone said we can't main tank in wotlk. We can, and we do it quite fine.

As most have stated already, it's not that 1% more damage that makes us suffer, it's the stupid acting of blizzard recently which keeps nerfing retribution, and backfiring on holy and prot, without realizing the damage they are doing to those 2 specs.
And getting out with a "oh, maybe we are breaking you, maybe in the future we should have to fix you".
Too bad that by then, the general ignorance combined with the weaknesses of prot paladins will have killed the future of a lot of prot paladins which, without this nonsenses, would have been able to compete.


I doubt that you realy think we are not able to compete, granted we wont be the TOPtanks, but good tanks don't grow on trees either.

I know for future tanks it will be still hard, but we managed to get our Tankspot in tbc, when everyone was telling us " Palydans cannot tank!111", still where are we now ? We tanked, we hold aggro, we survived, raids got cancled because 1 of the TANKs wasn't there.

We earned our spot in the community and in raids.
Now the players know Paladins are on the letter, and I seriously doubt they will shove us away just because of a few lil' diffrences.
My group won't. And I was tanking endgame content 7months ago.( BT / SWP)

Yes it's biased that we suffer , I am not blind, but overall we got a damn nice overhaul. That was what I wanted to get through.
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Postby Noobgetier » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:08 pm

Katamai wrote:Don't even know why i put in "interrupts", you're right, SS dispells, doesn't interrupt.

But still, i think my point is valid.

And i agree with your post above. We will be able to do it, but in terms of "equality" among classes, they're not there.

I thought we were heading in a great direction after SotT buff but then the retribution-turn-prot/holy-nerf debacle happened and that broke the camel's back so to speak.

This whole "we keep nerfing you and we might fix it some day in the future" talk is insulting to the point where it's got me sick of playing a paladin. I've plowed through growing pains as a tank in 2.0, i've plowed through unnerfed KZ, being rotated on fights like NB due to shitty mechanics, i've pushed before and after we got our HP fixed and our best traits shown in MH, but i think i'm giving up now. I've spent nights reading theorycraft, grinding every place i could for an item that brings me 0.1% closer to my goal of proving people i was as good as warriors. I've spent countless hours grinding so i can get the best items available and xrealmed in pursuit of a guild that would acknowledge me as a good tank leaving my RL friends behind. I've ended up on EU's most progressed server in the 3rd best guild there. I've been recognized as one of the best paladin tanks on the server so i've reached my goals, right?

Wrong. My GM and MT still puts me to shame in times due how Blizzard is designing this game and there's nothing i can do about it. No matter how hard i grind, how much gold i spend, how great gear i get, i can't do anything if one day i wake up and see i've been labeled as "collateral dmg" again and thrown in the gutter.

It's not that we're worse tanks than we were, it's that they're treating this spec with such disrespect and such... apathy. They just can't be that clueless to not know what their ret "balancing" is doing to prot/holy and their responses are in my eyes nothing but crowd pleasing crap. "I might help you get up now that i punched you in the face" just isn't good enough anymore. If you're serious, do it now!

Especially once you play a warrior and see what they made them. They could do it for us too but for some reason (they don't hate us right?), they're not doing it.


See? Much better approach, next time dont let it out on me. My blockvalue got increased ;)
I know the issues and the treatment we have to face, but to be honest, NOTHING changed in the last 3 years, except the fact that we can tank seriously in this game, and by the gods, we're getting better and better at it :)
Last edited by Noobgetier on Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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With infinate glee, it's going to be me, that slaughters the world!
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