Now that AW causes forbearance again

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Postby Joacimcans » Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:10 pm

out of curiosity was there even a blue post about this i mean did they say they were going to implement this because they have been swinging the freaking nerf bat at ret for nearing 3 weeks now when will they be done? Has any other class been "hotfixed" so many times as ret? i mean for a company that has 11million customers i would think they would put some more thought into first off buffing ret to a Godlike levels only to constantly nerf them for 3 weeks.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:14 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:They're getting close to deadline, and hotfixing is their solution to not having enough time to implement properly and still get adequate testing on whether the change works. It isn't ideal, because with hotfixes are limited in what they can change (note that GC said they'd use forbearance *if* it could be hotfixed to shorter duration, which it apparently could).
This change was done on short notice, yes, and it's not particularly well implemented, but I think it was really just a "lets see if locking out bubble and wings make ret pvp look more balanced" change, and I trust they'll actually fix the implementation after they've seen the result. Remember that from the patch day to WotLK release 3.0 is still essentially a work in progress (yes that can be said of WoW as a whole, but they at least try to get things to a stable state by release).


I didn't design WoW, but based on things they've hotfixed before, I think that if one of the guys in charge was thinking at all, they could have hotfixed in something. Or they could have just said, for once, ya know, "Ret's kinda powerful, but it's only for a week or so." FFS man, it just ticks me off how some classes have it 100% fine for all four arena seasons, some rule an entire brackets for three seasons, some have dominated 1v1 for an entire expansion, but the second Ret is a little too good, they can't put in the time or thought to pay attention to what they're doing and nerf a completely unrelated playstyle.

I know class balance is tough, and I usually give them the benefit of the doubt, but dang! When Resto Druids in blues were getting 2k, they didn't go around nerfing Feral or Moonfire. What'd they do? They nerfed the RANGE of Cyclone (now ONLY 20 yards) and reduced the coefficient of the bloom of Lifebloom by something like 20%. At the end of season four, the vast majority of high rated (2v2) teams have druids. Don't they seem to be treating Rets differently?
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Postby Joacimcans » Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:16 pm

I know personally i would not feel so bad and my moral about playing a paladin wouldn't be so low if i didnt have to almost fear for my paladin's saftey every time i go to a forum to read the newest Nerf. I mean Blizzard should have really thought about it there would be not so much QQing if they had just left ret about where it was pre 3.0 and worked UPwards for increasing instead of going way to high and having to lower them so many times. Think about it for a min NO ONE cries about getting buffed. (minus other classes) compared to EVERYONE both Paladins for getting nerfed daily and other classes because ret was OP. So if they had worked forward instead of constantly going backwards.
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Postby Katamai » Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:35 pm

I just love how they're thinking about balancing ret over prot's back again!

We're exploring this now, possibly though the missing 11-point Prot talent, possibly through other avenues. We'll let you know when we've made a decision here.


I may be (and probably am) overreacting but i am fucking sick of having my spec dictated and ruined by another one.

You'd think with all the money and talent they have in Blizzard, they could finally sort out this screwed up class called paladins. Why the hell are they even thinking about balancing ret via prot? So when they realize they fucked up ret again they can nerf us and repeat the same old "we MIGHT compensate prot" shit...

We don't need to have our DPS buffed due to ret balancing, we want to be able to do our job without having to fearfully look at ret and cringe every time people start QQing about how OP they are.

I need sleep... -.-"

PS Dusting off my warrior tomorrow... fuck this shit <_<
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Postby Worldie » Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:41 pm

moduspwnens wrote:I know class balance is tough, and I usually give them the benefit of the doubt, but dang! When Resto Druids in blues were getting 2k, they didn't go around nerfing Feral or Moonfire. What'd they do? They nerfed the RANGE of Cyclone (now ONLY 20 yards) and reduced the coefficient of the bloom of Lifebloom by something like 20%. At the end of season four, the vast majority of high rated (2v2) teams have druids. Don't they seem to be treating Rets differently?

That's mainly because resto dr00ds were immortal, while retlols are easily killable but they oneshot.
One frustrates you cause you can't kill him, the other frustrates you because he destroys you before you can react.

Blizzard employee don't like the 2nd kind of QQ, because there's no fun in that apparently.
Nevermind that there was no fun in needing 5 people or 2 with lots of lucky crits to take down 1 single druid.
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Postby Drae » Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:58 pm

Nemue wrote:Holy and protspeccs fucked over again for a retributionfix.

Why couldnt they just add a simple cancelaura avenging wrath to bubble and cancelaura divine shield for when popping wings, it would seem the easiest way of dealing with it without screwing anyone over.

But nooo, forebearance and screwing ppl over is more in line with their policies i guess.
Agree with this - they want prot to be pvp viable? Stop screwing us over every single time they want to nerf ret a bit, because it effects us just as much -_-
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:33 pm

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Postby Gregarth » Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:14 am

Andryana wrote:I just don't understand these hotfixes(and they are all to Ret), is it really needed to balance lvl 70 PvP when we are two weeks away from expansion?

In the meanwhile arcane mages are two-shotting people and that is fine..


Shhh ... mages were becoming a lost class cause everyone wanted locs. That isn't even close to ret paladins ><

Seriously, bubble is great for Holy guy doing "OH CRAP!" healing, and I enjoy it when I grab one too many mob AoE tanking. It amazes me that they are having so much difficulty balancing for one mechanic that has been around forever.
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Postby Seraphia » Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:36 am

The thing that bothers/amuses me the most, is the Hot fixing itself.


"Oh God, Ret Paladins are still doing too much in PvP!!!111!!one!!! TO THE NERFMOBILE!"


For whatever reason, these nerfs had to be out there, RIGHT NOW! This very instant! The game is in grave danger if paladins AW + bubble :roll:



If Paladins were one-shotting raid bosses or something, sure, yea go ahead and hot fix it and we'll deal with the ramifications for awhile... but this specific nerf, smells like someone at Blizz HQ, high on the food chain, is all "That RetNub kicked my dog! :cry: "


That last bit is probably unfair and full of hyperbole.


I'm honestly not entirely convinced it's false though. :P
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Postby lusisia » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:09 am

Seraphia wrote:The thing that bothers/amuses me the most, is the Hot fixing itself.


"Oh God, Ret Paladins are still doing too much in PvP!!!111!!one!!! TO THE NERFMOBILE!"


For whatever reason, these nerfs had to be out there, RIGHT NOW! This very instant! The game is in grave danger if paladins AW + bubble :roll:



If Paladins were one-shotting raid bosses or something, sure, yea go ahead and hot fix it and we'll deal with the ramifications for awhile... but this specific nerf, smells like someone at Blizz HQ, high on the food chain, is all "That RetNub kicked my dog! :cry: "


That last bit is probably unfair and full of hyperbole.


I'm honestly not entirely convinced it's false though. :P


One thing they said was that they needed to get these changes into the hands of the most possible players as soon as possible so they can determine the impact. The beta servers are largely dead at this point so you won't get too much testing done there.

It does feel like they want the ret problem to be solved by launch but it also feels like that's very unlikely and that all three trees will go into xpac underperforming until they can fix it.

The problem is they won't have time to just focus on ret and paladin issues once things go live because they'll have to balance it around all the other issues going on.
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Postby Maihes » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:21 am

Coming from a Ret pally that has played PvE and PvP long before 3.0, the nerfs aren't that bad for Ret, we were OP and all that. What pisses me off was that they nerf Ret in ways that nerf Prot, and not only that but they nerf things that are BALANCED at 80 in PvP.

Oh yea and not to mention as people have already stated in this and many other posts, other OP Specs / Classes post 3.0 don't get nerfed, but the underdogs that have never dominated Arena in any bracket (go go Resto Druids in blues.....) gets nerfed into the ground relentlessly.

Again I PvEd and PvPd pre 3.0 will continue to do so.But gotta love Blizz politics :roll:
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Postby Macha » Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:57 am

One thing they said was that they needed to get these changes into the hands of the most possible players as soon as possible so they can determine the impact. The beta servers are largely dead at this point so you won't get too much testing done there.


It's strange isn't it. You'd think one would do this kind of stuff during the beta.
But sadly, during the beta, the focus was on others :<
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Postby Rhî » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:40 am

I've thought, making a new, fresh thread, focussing just on my idea would be better than posting in a full thread, where many things were and are disccused. But okey, after closing mine. Here again...

With one hotifx Blizzard have done a massive and shortsighted nerf to the complete Paladin class.

My idea, for which I want your feedback and support, is, that Blizzard rework Divine Shield and take off Forebearance of Avenging Wrath again.

Divine Shield: "Protects the paladin from all damage and spells for 12 sec, but decreases <his/her> damage by 100%. Once protected, the target cannot be protected by Divine Shield, Divine Protection or Hand of Protection again for 3 min."

If you activate Divine Shield, you will be immune to any damage and are unable to do any damage. You will be able to use skills like Repentance, heals or other non-damaging abilities, if you want. Even Avenging Wrath could be activated, although it would be senseless for the time Divine Shield is running. But you could use Divine Shield, then heal you up, divine shield wears off and immediately pop up Avenging Wrath to fight back your enemy. No overpowered burst, but annyoing strong survivability with minor burst.

After that Blizzard should rework Sacred Duty, matching this changes.

Sacred Duty: "Increases your total Stamina by 3/6%, reduces the cooldown of your Divine Shield and Divine Protection spells by 30/60 sec and reduces the damage penalty by 50/100%."

Any comments and improving suggestions are welcome. And if possible, make an in-game suggestion feedback with this idea.
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Postby Katamai » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:49 am

Do for AW+Bubble same thing like they did for trinkets.

Activating one puts a cd with the same duration as the buff, on the other one. Can't bubble+AW at the same time. No forbearance, no shit.

But i guess that's too complicated for Blizztard developers.
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Postby Sockpuppet » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:49 am

What Rhî said, that or Sacred Duty goes to: "Increases your total Stamina by 3/6%, reduces the cooldown of your Divine Shield and Divine Protection spells by 30/60 sec and reduces the duration of your Forbearance debuff by 50/100%."
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