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Now that AW causes forbearance again

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Postby daemonym » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:54 am

granted this change is faily annoying, but it won't effect me too much. back in TBC i didn't use wings all that often whiel tanking. always saving that DS for a debuff or as a 'breather' (guess what mr off-tank, you're main tanking now till i get some heals!) or a tank switch if taunts failed.

then we could use it without worries for a little bit and back again it goes never to be used in a serious situation again.
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Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:58 am

As almost always, people can have a valid point and are wrong at the same time.
You are right, the protection paladin in LK is in better shape than the protection paladin was in TBC.
And you are right, that at the moment nobody cares about differences in mitigation, dps and tps.
Don't be too sure, that this won't change. At the moment every content is far beyond triviality. And Naxxramas and the other starting raid content won't be a true challenge. And Blizzard meant, there won't be a second sunwell.
But there comes a time, small differences will make the difference. There will be raid content challenging us to the last percent. And at that time, we will be second choice again, if that not already happened earlier in Naxxramas. Because it seems, that every raidcommunity is generous at the moment, not laying weight on these small differences, this isn't a guarantee, that this will hold. And I'm not convinced that this behavior remains. If there is a tank, that is doing more dps and tps and also take less damage, than the raid communities will start again favoring this one tank.

It's dangerous to be the suboptimal choice in almost every aspect. Please can anyone tell me, where we are without restrictions the 'better' tank?

Although I admit, that we are almost on par in mitigation terms. The only thing that troubles my mind there is the scaling potencial of shield block + critical block and our big Healthpool disadvantage at the beginning.

They are hotfixing the shit out of us, because of ret balance. Some other specs were OP almost complete TBC and nothing happened.
They are not hotfixing our big bugs like Divine Guardian. And they are not hotfixing Arcane Mages, which are as dangerous as rets.

Paladins seems to have a special role and a special treatment by the devs. And not in a truely good way.

This is, what really bother me. GC is very communicative, but his words are vague, and while, as vague as he speaks, he was able to contradict himself. And not only in the things he has said, also the things he said differs from the things the devs are doing.

An at last, their work in the last few weeks regarding the paladin class shows a scary lack of knowledge. These so called ret nerfs were at every time in reality paladin nerfs (the best thing or worst thing, they hit not rets at all). And yet up to day there is no compensation than the vague promise there could be any. Their decisions are weird and they speak with forked tongue.

If the story wouldn't be that great and epic...


All 25 man raid instances at 80 that will be released with WOTLK are kinda piece of cake , or so people in beta in my guild tell me

You are right that things might change and that small% would make a diference ( though I honestly doubt it ) but even so thats months away

Im not saying people should not be concerned , but people should NOT go with stuff like saying ill reroll warrior , or ill quit or other crap
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:23 am

Io.Draco wrote:All 25 man raid instances at 80 that will be released with WOTLK are kinda piece of cake , or so people in beta in my guild tell me

You are right that things might change and that small% would make a diference ( though I honestly doubt it ) but even so thats months away

Im not saying people should not be concerned , but people should NOT go with stuff like saying ill reroll warrior , or ill quit or other crap


My understanding was that the difficulty in the 25 man raids and 10 mans for that matter were going to be increased...

In one of the Blue posts, it was stated that Blizzard made the trash and stuff easy so that they could easily enable beta testers to test the instances
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:32 am

Knaughty wrote:
Bobness wrote:
Knaughty wrote:We beg to differ. I don't think you can compare across different raids.


would have been a lot nicer

I'm tired of being nice to people who go:

We suck

No we don't.

Prove it!

Theorycraft

Theorycraft doesn't count

WWS Parse

Contrived and incorrect analysis

*sigh*

We suck!


There are certain people in this forum who are like "Young Earth Creationists" - they're decided we suck, and even when presented with evidence we don't suck refuse to acknowledge it exists because it doesn't fit with their world-view.


Knaughty

I was one of those that did the theorycraft mitigation analysis.

And I agree, on physical damage mitigation, warriors and paladins are very close.

But, warrior mechanic scales very well with block rating now.

Would have been interested in exactly what the %block chance was on the warrior in the parses.

Data passes showed clearly, that there were two ways for a warrior to
use their shield block. One was to spam it when it was up, which eliminated the most incoming damage in a fight with no gimmicks.

The other was to use it to lower damage during enrages or other stomps or whatever.

However, as the warriors chance to block increases, the fact that critical block continues to scale their mitigation factor starts to work in their favor.

Because of diminishing returns, I fully expect the smart warriors to realize that stacking dodge/parry in WotLK is not a great idea.

As a result, they will stack more defense and thus further increase their chance to block.

I also expect them to realize that having more gear to increase their natural chance to block is a really good idea.

Suffice it to say, that if they gear correctly, they will not take more damage on average...they will simply take slightly spikier damage.

My issues at present are not with physical mitigation, but at our lack of spell mitigation and our lower dps in equivalent gear.

As I said earlier, the change to AW hurt our frontload capability.
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Postby Vaze » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:43 am

I don't care if we suck or if we are amazing. I am dissatisfied with their approach to changing retribution. They are covering up symptoms instead of addressing problems, and they are doing it through ill-conceived, poorly tested hotfixes.

Each iteration of changes has become more careless than the one before it. The change to Avenging Wrath is nothing short of incompetent, and their obvious desperation is making them look like fools.
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Postby elfjorc » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:45 am

Vaze wrote:I don't care if we suck or if we are amazing. I am dissatisfied with their approach to changing retribution. They are covering up symptoms instead of addressing problems, and they are doing it through ill-conceived, poorly tested hotfixes.

Each iteration of changes has become more careless than the one before it. The change to Avenging Wrath is nothing short of incompetent, and their obvious desperation is making them look like fools.


The hotfixes ARE the testing. Live is beta-lite right now.
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Postby Markoh » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:26 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:
My understanding was that the difficulty in the 25 man raids and 10 mans for that matter were going to be increased...

In one of the Blue posts, it was stated that Blizzard made the trash and stuff easy so that they could easily enable beta testers to test the instances


I don't think this is true. They have repeatedly asked beta testers for combat logs of naxx and the other entry level encounters for the purpose of balancing the dungeons and the classes. It would be kind of stupid to go through all the trouble of balancing everything in beta and then increasing the difficulty and hoping that it scales perfectly like they want it.

I'm pretty sure the first tier raids are meant to be this easy and it will start ramping up with ulduar and the instances that follow it.
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Postby Grimmal » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:39 pm

I'm pretty sure the first tier raids are meant to be this easy and it will start ramping up with ulduar and the instances that follow it.


I can't be bothered to find the quote atm, but a Blue said that they felt that entering Karazhan was to steep of a curve at the time and that Naxx will much more kind.

Basically you'll level to 80, get some instance gear and walk into Naxx and be able to do decently with any real skill compared to early Kara where you really had to gear up if you weren't in one of the better guilds on your server. Something to that extent at least.
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Postby uke » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:45 pm

I used to have AW macro'd to my Crusader Strike button, along with my on-use DPS trinkets. One button for all sorts of damage boosts, and smacking people all in one.

I took AW off my macro last night.

Is it annoying? Sure it is. However I was still usually number 1 in killing blows and damage done in most of my BG's the last couple days without AW. I have confidence that Blizz will find an acceptable solution to making them play nice together. I think that having one lock out the other w/o forbearance is the best solution, but we'll just have to wait and see what comes down the pike.

The sky is not falling.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:53 pm

uke wrote:I used to have AW macro'd to my Crusader Strike button, along with my on-use DPS trinkets. One button for all sorts of damage boosts, and smacking people all in one.

I took AW off my macro last night.

Is it annoying? Sure it is. However I was still usually number 1 in killing blows and damage done in most of my BG's the last couple days without AW. I have confidence that Blizz will find an acceptable solution to making them play nice together. I think that having one lock out the other w/o forbearance is the best solution, but we'll just have to wait and see what comes down the pike.

The sky is not falling.


This isnt about battle grounds...nor is it about Ret...

Its about Prot spec and not being able to use AW to front load threat as easily since if we do, we lock out our shieldwall...
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Postby uke » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:01 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:
uke wrote:I used to have AW macro'd to my Crusader Strike button, along with my on-use DPS trinkets. One button for all sorts of damage boosts, and smacking people all in one.

I took AW off my macro last night.

Is it annoying? Sure it is. However I was still usually number 1 in killing blows and damage done in most of my BG's the last couple days without AW. I have confidence that Blizz will find an acceptable solution to making them play nice together. I think that having one lock out the other w/o forbearance is the best solution, but we'll just have to wait and see what comes down the pike.

The sky is not falling.


This isnt about battle grounds...nor is it about Ret...

Its about Prot spec and not being able to use AW to front load threat as easily since if we do, we lock out our shieldwall...


Same difference. Prot has to decide between more threat or more survivability. Like I said, it sucks and we'll just have to see what develops. Stop thinking everything is set in stone when things change almost every day.
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Postby Splug » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:15 pm

uke wrote:Same difference. Prot has to decide between more threat or more survivability. Like I said, it sucks and we'll just have to see what develops. Stop thinking everything is set in stone when things change almost every day.
The current trend is down. There's going to be a bit of grumbling, but a lot of it isn't overly excessive. A few people are very vocal about how awful it is and that they're bailing on the class, but even then a portion of them have a single-digit post count. A much larger portion are simply trying to keep track of the current state. For example, I've seen a lot of posts by Gath stating his views and the reasoning behind it. While a lot of them highlight negative aspects and shortcomings of the class, I have to give him credit for keeping the tone of a scorekeeper. It's data with an opinion tacked in, not the inverse.

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Postby uke » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:28 pm

Splug wrote:For example, I've seen a lot of posts by Gath stating his views and the reasoning behind it. While a lot of them highlight negative aspects and shortcomings of the class, I have to give him credit for keeping the tone of a scorekeeper. It's data with an opinion tacked in, not the inverse.

-Splug


And that I'm completely fine with. Please don't think I'm saying that everything is peachy and rosy. We're definately in worse shape now than on the day 3.0.1 was launched. However, the reasons make since as Ret was way off the charts in being OP. The nerf cannon sucks, but I can see why they're doing it.

I also understand that Prot and Holy pallys are ticked because they got gimped due to trying to deal with Ret's OP'ness.

Also, I am all for bringing up legimate points of concern. Even better if someone actually tries to act on it by posting on the beta forums or other places where GC, etc, can see and comment on them (GC's posting spree this weekend are evidence that it works).

My main points are:
1. think of how fast changes have been coming over the past few weeks. Also consider comments from GC that he realizes that prot and holy have been hurt due to Ret changes. He's said that adjustments will be made to compensate. Now, unlike some of the "you can't believe anything he says, we'll be gimped forever" babies, I have confidence that these necessary changes will come about in due time. It may not be tomorrow, it might not even be until the expansion ships, but it will come. Heck, is it going to kill you if all problems aren't resolved today, when all lvl 70 content is a joke anyways? There are other classes with issues of their own they must help as well. Just be patient and see what develops.

If you have concerns, bring them up, post them to Blizzard. Do something productive beyond "woe is me, I'm going to reroll"

2. What chaps my hide (and the hide of many others on here) is not the posting of legitimate concerns, but the endless, USELESS (bolded for great emphasis) self-pity crying all the emo-kids on here keep spewing, in every topic, everytime they post, all over these forums.

This is not your emotional support group. I don't log on here to coddle angsty teenagers who use WoW as some sort of emotional fulfillment, while holding their hand telling them "there there, everything's going to be OK. You just go ahead and get your crying out of your system".

You can tell me "well just don't read those posts". The problem is that they are practically EVERYWHERE I look.
Pally's been relegated to AH duties.

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Postby Sonic » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:33 pm

Ya know, if they don't want us to have bubble and wings up at the same time that's fine. Make AW a physical so it can't be spell stolen or dispel/purged and it would be acceptable.
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Postby Amanor » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:38 pm

uke wrote:And that I'm completely fine with. Please don't think I'm saying that everything is peachy and rosy. We're definately in worse shape now than on the day 3.0.1 was launched. However, the reasons make since as Ret was way off the charts in being OP. The nerf cannon sucks, but I can see why they're doing it.

I also understand that Prot and Holy pallys are ticked because they got gimped due to trying to deal with Ret's OP'ness.


I think part of the issue isn't so much the collateral damage itself, so much that Blizzard seems content with the idea that collateral damage is acceptable.

Blizzard should have been looking for the real problem and working to fix it, but instead they're rushing and making sloppy adjustments that hurt all specs, for reasons that appear to be concerning entirely level 70 balance. Of course people are going to get pissed, if a military decided to carpet bomb instead of a "surgical strike" and knocked over civilian buildings, people'd be pissed about that, too.

uke wrote:Also, I am all for bringing up legimate points of concern. Even better if someone actually tries to act on it by posting on the beta forums or other places where GC, etc, can see and comment on them (GC's posting spree this weekend are evidence that it works).

My main points are:
1. think of how fast changes have been coming over the past few weeks. Also consider comments from GC that he realizes that prot and holy have been hurt due to Ret changes. He's said that adjustments will be made to compensate. Now, unlike some of the "you can't believe anything he says, we'll be gimped forever" babies, I have confidence that these necessary changes will come about in due time. It may not be tomorrow, it might not even be until the expansion ships, but it will come. Heck, is it going to kill you if all problems aren't resolved today, when all lvl 70 content is a joke anyways? There are other classes with issues of their own they must help as well. Just be patient and see what develops.

If you have concerns, bring them up, post them to Blizzard. Do something productive beyond "woe is me, I'm going to reroll"


You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that GC has promised compensation. He hasn't. He's made sure explicitly not to promise anything more than that they are "working on" the issue that Holy and Prot "may" have lost "too much" DPS. Wording is everything, in this way, if they make buffs, they can say "I told you I had your back" and if they don't, they can say "Well, we never said we'd give you compensation. Where'd you get that idea?"

We shouldn't be content to settle for changes that will occur in due time, especially when they don't seem content to make negative changes in that light. I don't want a punch in the face now and some bandages or ice later. I want it right after I get punched in the face. I don't think that's unreasonable. I don't want to wait for 3.3 for what I should have now.

You also mention a "Well if you have a problem, post it to the boards for GC to read" as though that accomplishes much of anything. We had to fight tooth and nail for a 3% Damage Reduction. We point out other problems and what's the blanket answer?

"I don't see a problem."

We're there to give input and maybe, just maybe, through a well constructed argument (or enough people screaming) we can turn their heads so they might look at something. But more often than not, they bull-headedly respond with a denial that there is any problem, and cite their having all the cards as the reasoning. Our little theorycraft and parses are cute to them, but ultimately worthless because they have graphs upon graphs of numbers we don't have at our disposal, and parses just say we need to L2P.

Hell, we have to fight for a single-target taunt, a core ability, which we are asking for to be in line with their stated goal of parity. It's no wonder people are impatient and growing irritable and downtrodden.

uke wrote:2. What chaps my hide (and the hide of many others on here) is not the posting of legitimate concerns, but the endless, USELESS (bolded for great emphasis) self-pity crying all the emo-kids on here keep spewing, in every topic, everytime they post, all over these forums.

This is not your emotional support group. I don't log on here to coddle angsty teenagers who use WoW as some sort of emotional fulfillment, while holding their hand telling them "there there, everything's going to be OK. You just go ahead and get your crying out of your system".

You can tell me "well just don't read those posts". The problem is that they are practically EVERYWHERE I look.


Well, given what some people have had to endure, I can't rightly blame people for being as upset as they are. Especially when we'd been given, perhaps unfairly, the hope of parity only to learn that the disparity in numbers and abilities is far larger than what most of us consider fair.

So you "just don't read those posts" may not apply. Fine. Ignore them then. I understand that takes a bit of self control, but it's far easier to exert said control over yourself than a crowd of others.
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